From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Oct 10 12:52:02 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ifhb7-0005l1-HM for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:52:01 -0700 Received: from eastrmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.240.7]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ifhb2-0005ka-Dv for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:52:00 -0700 Received: from eastrmimpo01.cox.net ([68.1.16.119]) by eastrmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20071010195148.QYOS6410.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:51:48 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([72.192.234.183]) by eastrmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id yjrl1X0093y5FKc0000000; Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:51:48 -0400 Message-ID: <470D2D3B.9040305@lojban.org> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:51:23 -0400 From: Bob LeChevalier User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Archivist/Founders: Clarification of "fuzme", please. References: <20071010172453.GC13890@digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560710101137v7813af0bmbe3c08d212cf1bb8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560710101137v7813af0bmbe3c08d212cf1bb8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13872 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 10/10/07, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > >>Heard on IRC: >> >> I read {fuzme} as "x1 is tasked with/supposed to bring about x2 >> (according to authority x3)" (think baupla fuzykamni), not "x1 >> is the one who actually did x2" >> >>I think that's unlikely, because if it was "tasked with", bilga >>would be wholly redundant, but I'd like to hear the official word. >> >>Whichever it is, I'll be updating the jbovlaste definition >>accordingly. > > I think it can't just be "x1 is the one who actually did x2", because x2 > need not be in the past, and besides you can actually do things > without being responsible for them, and also you can be responsible > for things you did not actually do yourself. > > One difference with {bilga} is that once you have done what you > are obliged to do, your obligation is over, whereas responsibility > for something persists once it's done. As a result of this, an obligation > cannot be imposed after the fact, whereas responsibility could (even > though it may be unfair to do so). > > An obligation is something you are required to do. > A responsibility is something you are required to answer for. An excellent description of the distinction, and it also highlights that the x3 of fuzme is an authority requiring such an answer, whereas the x3 of bilga is merely a standard or agreement - there need be no authority enforcing the standard for one to have an obligation or duty (to some, duty is precisely that sort of requirement that one fulfills without needing an authority). The word "blamed" fits in there as a synonym, but probably is malfuzme, because we do not "blame" someone for fulfilling their responsibilities, only for failing them; we honor them (a different sense than sinma, which is esteem that is NOT necessarily tied to a specific action). I took up the leadership of the Loglan/Lojban community out of a sense of bilga, not in response to any x3 authority. I stepped down because of fuzme - an x3 community that held me responsible for my failings in business management and in leading the organization into the 21st century of Internet-based activity. lojbab To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.