From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Dec 18 11:58:39 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4iaM-0001d4-Cj for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:58:38 -0800 Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.181]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J4iaH-0001cH-V5 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:58:38 -0800 Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id n30so626126elf.20 for ; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:58:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=SfCIj07CsgUFIbNYXyiP+syd+XbZ1Xpb8vPhq/EsyOc=; b=SQ4CNfi0A62qLDbOthaEXlBoHCBp7uzg+Pkzn2GuKKT8yvAHSUEorjK+SqRYy1qGhbRwYUlLOLgF3BMfRoYDuNirpTw4Q8iJFeB8hB+1LX4FNeddiA9GdQ55uVDLJ4mGeuK6KPaA9g8mc4IPjhre/mxZlK/JgEmHEsBTMhPfCW0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BoroOwozqy7JGCZW9mWUWYpERVF8nPwf+H2xn6Xmjzv5N3O5uV1qN9AZxRu3fYErQHc1gppHHtkS4ZF/gpkv0tG9P6AMu8gh9AoiOO3pyI2lbWR0irsF810hUcLdgdJNqScLekmbqSwjtCh1r/Bn1WXu/d+A5rydUVXlhVTIb74= Received: by 10.142.143.7 with SMTP id q7mr2443520wfd.3.1198007511409; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.55.5 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:51:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <975a94850712181151p2753bc2eja22a4d5c15822c15@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 11:51:51 -0800 From: "Joel Shellman" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: is a gismu a selbri? In-Reply-To: <3ccac5f10712181136w76664b5drdd962b2c9f12df97@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30712181039r134bca55v908d10e8be1323be@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560712181117k3d8ee116yab87e6e27d6d6361@mail.gmail.com> <3ccac5f10712181136w76664b5drdd962b2c9f12df97@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14038 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jshellman@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Dec 18, 2007 11:36 AM, Cyril Slobin wrote: > On 12/18/07, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > "gismu" is also not a part of speech in the usual sense. The parts > > of speech in Lojban would be BRIVLA, CMEVLA, A, BAI, ..., ZOhU. > > I have just now discovered that English language has such a confusion. > Correct me if I am wrong, but... In English we can speak, say, about > the SVO order. "S" is for "Subject" here, and nobody mistakes "Subject" > with "Noun", although noun can (and often do) work as subject. > > On the other hand, "V" is for "Verb", and we have one word where two > are need. I am rather illiterate in English, so the following question > may be stupid: which word relates to "verb" the same way as "subject" > relates to "noun"? In Russian there are two distinct terms, and people > are taught to distinguish them when they are about ten years ago. Should the correct English word be predicate instead of verb? Not to confuse the word predicate as used in the lojban/logic sense, but I think the equivalent of subject is predicate and the use of the term verb there is probably technically incorrect. I just checked this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_%28grammar%29 and some others. It appears that SVO is indeed messed up (at least in my opinion). English sentences have 2 fundamental parts only: subject and predicate. The SVO should be NVO and represent an example instance of a simple sentence but not as the definition of its structure. That being said, I'm not an English expert, but quick review seems to show the above as making sense (to me, at least). To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.