From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Feb 02 13:59:51 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:59:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLQOt-0001dm-7M for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:59:51 -0800 Received: from hs-out-0708.google.com ([64.233.178.244] helo=hs-out-2122.google.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JLQOj-0001dQ-49 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:59:50 -0800 Received: by hs-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 23so3076209hsn.2 for ; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:59:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=K86vMVm/j0QfSPx9DbIcqRW4j+YJIvch+CvilYtapAI=; b=iLYZ4lKsrt4maLbOD37qbiywXHof1tqaPsc60gHhOmdKvVxqegmbD8e+jL1MJOmp861aIo/tCzq6SkRaS4ak52GOupPbI1hdsBCwICcej4YbUORBHg++tcZApwEr3gVyXcrcRYHN0LtHZXj7Byi6vT9pOclcXllx4LLVT+TyV1c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=S2MUB2z8dxLVImS1I02hel1S4oEP19iHTPBllpmdZHQzG1qbex3+azLlgC5S5YBpHhyUMwq81mbE1Bzunfuxpm9DrRh/9Nq4s9J+KNb/Uo/1eNC06EJe4QA+txO7oomgMGP1xh66g0FJJM5VY6PhOFNF1N1IezqLN+rYglWABvY= Received: by 10.142.242.8 with SMTP id p8mr2879494wfh.232.1201989577958; Sat, 02 Feb 2008 13:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.193.17 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Feb 2008 13:59:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <737b61f30802021359v5d296490yd3d868fba7c44f14@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 15:59:37 -0600 From: "Chris Capel" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: lo questions In-Reply-To: <925d17560802021302h49211bddi9f801426904e6be2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30802011636w6c8b6bc4hb34ab8bb417f1cf2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560802021302h49211bddi9f801426904e6be2@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14155 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Feb 2, 2008 3:02 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 9:36 PM, Chris Capel wrote: > > But I'm finding myself confused about the effects > > of the proposal. Here's a section I'm rewriting. > > > > > So lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs', or more simply, 'three dogs'. (As a conversational convention, we can assume that the "any/some" means "all" when the number is specified after lo.) ci lo gerku, however, means more like 'three of any/some dogs', i.e. three out of a group of dogs of unspecified size. That's still useful, but probably not what we have in mind when, in English, we say "three dogs". > > > > Is this accurate so far? > > The statement "lo ci gerku means 'any/some of three dogs'" doesn't sound > very accurate to me. There is no 'any/some of' in the Lojban phrase, nor any > 'all' involved either. I got "any/some" straight from the definition of lo in the BPFK proposal: "The resulting expression refers generically to *any or some* individual or individuals that fit as the first argument of the selbri." > >Now here's where I'm confused. If "lo ci > > gerku" is the best equivalent of "three dogs", then wouldn't we expect > > "ci gerku" to also mean "three dogs"? And yet, according to the gadri > > proposal[3], "ci gerku" means "ci lo gerku", or "three of some dogs". > > That seems backwards to me. > > {ci [lo] gerku} is not very meaningful by itself. An outer quantifier is an > operator, and it needs a full bridi to operate on. So when LFB says For example, {ci le gerku} means 'three of the dogs', while {le ci gerku} means 'the three dogs.' it's actually being misleading? Perhaps I don't understand gadri well enough to try to present a simplification. Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.