From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Apr 02 14:34:21 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JhAb7-0002Ad-2C for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:34:21 -0700 Received: from grendel.dealloc.org ([213.133.97.204]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1JhAb1-0002AR-V3 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:34:20 -0700 Received: by grendel.dealloc.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BD8F239C525; Wed, 2 Apr 2008 23:32:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 23:32:36 +0200 From: mublin To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Chinese, English and Spanish etymology of Lojban Message-ID: <20080402213236.GI9672@grendel.dealloc.org> References: <20080313194839.GB9672@grendel.dealloc.org> <47D9BE15.5040405@lojban.org> <20080325184545.GD9672@grendel.dealloc.org> <12d58c160803251950k56535300ga2f64ef72c637d70@mail.gmail.com> <20080401140537.GE9672@grendel.dealloc.org> <925d17560804011442m66b30807lb93d02025ebe3097@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <925d17560804011442m66b30807lb93d02025ebe3097@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14284 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mublin@dealloc.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Many thanks for the feedback and help with the Spanish source words! Some comments follow below. The Spanish etymology [1] has been updated. [1] https://www.dealloc.org/~mublin On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 02:37:14PM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > Several Spanish words are listed with unrelated meanings: "este" > (east) and "este" (this) are different words, as are "sed" (thirst) > and "sed" (be). For {sumti}, "subject of a sentence" is more likely > to be the relevant meaning than the verb form. "corto", at {tordu}, > does not have its homonym (form of "cortar"). On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 06:42:40PM -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote: > >explotar "to exploit" > > Although "to exploit" is one of its meanings, it does also mean "to > explode". Sorry about this. Many English translations are beside the point or missing because (after the actual reconstruction was finished) they were looked up on en.wiktionary.org by a script and added without any editing. I do not know a good public domain dictionary, nor am I able to write the 1300 odd translations myself. For now, I have removed the many irrelevant inflected verb forms, for example the translation of Spanish ``era'' (for English ``era'') as ``first-person singular imperfect indicative form of ser''. On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 06:42:40PM -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote: > drudi roof [texod] > tejado > FIXIT correct transcription "tex" > > Shouldn't that be "texad"? Hm... yes. I assumed ``tejado (roof)'' was a noun derived from the past participle of ``tejar (to tile)''. Apparently it is in fact derived from ``teja (tile)'' with derivational suffix ``-ado'' [1]. [1] http://es.wiktionary.org/wiki/tejado In about half of the source words ending in ``-ado'', the ending was removed before gismu generation, including mostly adjectives derived from past participles, but also some nouns: jalge [result] resultado smuni [signifik] significado In the other half, only the suffix ``-o'' was removed. Many of these words are nouns and not derived from a Spanish past participle (though often a Latin one), e.g.: sonci [soldad] soldado kurfa [kuadrad] cuadrado jecta [estad] estado > ganti testicle [test] > test- > FIXIT dubious > > "testa" is "head", but it doesn't make sense to have it as a option > for "testículo". Then I suppose [test] and [testikul] are just different Lojbanisations of ``testículo'', and that removing the ending ``-ículo'' was considered optional in the gismu generation process. Changed to: ganti [test] testículo ganti [testikul] testículo > rijno silver [arxentos] > argento "silver" > FIXIT correct transcription "arxent" > > I think some of the "Spanish" source words were actually Portuguese. > Perhaps this is one of them, although that woldn't be the correct > Portuguese prounciation of "argentoso". A Portuguese word with Spanish > prounciation? Hm... Could the adjective ``argentoso (silvery; containing silver)'' be an existent though hardly used word in both Portuguese and Spanish? It is listed in Gran Enciclopedia Salvat [1] and on another site [2]. [1] http://www.ebrisa.com/portalc/articulo-S/417800 [2] http://www.laspalabras.net/suffixes/palabras_acabo_con_oso.php > vlipa powerful [poder] > poder "power, reign; authorization; to be able, can" > FIXIT correct transcription "pod" > > Probably "poderoso" (powerful). I think ``poderoso'' would have been Lojbanised as ``poderos''. Almost all source words ending in ``-oso'' were shortened to ``-os'', e.g.: glare [kaluros] caluroso kucli [kurios] curioso kukte [gustos] gustoso There are two (probably unintentional) exceptions to this: lazni [peres] perezoso masno [despasi] despacioso Thanks again. -- mu'o mi'e mublin. 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