From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue May 27 07:00:11 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 27 May 2008 07:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K0zil-00009D-9B for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 27 May 2008 07:00:11 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.240]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K0zid-00083n-8A for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 27 May 2008 07:00:11 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so2447382rvf.46 for ; Tue, 27 May 2008 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=Y2l85rPHLkUfPRzsNN9Kq26C9BsMMiPS1ApIrsjmPV4=; b=oj3oyKickjDegtqkAY6ufodlkuaOqE1zTSGBFyHkEjPLjRTuoiuI+cyenZOi65urOkNAzA2johAC8+QqQPQ9XX+YQ9OiGclOzV0/R1Mzryf0mjc4uvNDsE/v5D7O1SmtS4igFI43yZurLF0In3GPwrKzjNXezkaiNSWVxR5sXqw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=HBhmv53VtzlSLh6qkhTPIlC+6+SHP7bxXs19peWhMZf8oIYgvJqIcm1SFeDaVafUnLK9m5lM9dWmTDhOuPcmtDA2nn8FiduIxQBPJGZ//Vvyy/QEDDqpOOflWgClMp2UrW8pioJbvEKv4fBLOLlB3N2yZdd6Pa/pAJ3Go7aBCSM= Received: by 10.140.140.3 with SMTP id n3mr543626rvd.299.1211896802340; Tue, 27 May 2008 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.162.14 with HTTP; Tue, 27 May 2008 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <96f789a60805270700p15755412j6e401ba836ac1396@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 10:00:02 -0400 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Assertions of time-relations and precision of abstractions In-Reply-To: <200805271431.41314.eldrikdo@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200805251745.08367.eldrikdo@gmail.com> <925d17560805251311w64befd5dx7c6713e729528f5d@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60805260917l7c06c303g13ae6954092eb26f@mail.gmail.com> <200805271431.41314.eldrikdo@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14438 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 8:31 AM, nam wrote: > Am Montag 26 Mai 2008 18:17:55 schrieb Michael Turniansky: >> What if it had instead asserted "I eat apples after Hell freezes >> over/after pigs fly"? The whole sentence is still valid, and may even >> be true, but that doesn't mean you've eaten any apples at all, yet. >> We will have to wait and see.... Remember, the main bridi had no >> tense associated with it, so it's simply asserting a fact, not >> necessarily one that has come to fruition yet. > > So, would it be valid so sum up: If {.i broda ba lo nu brode} is given, > {broda} happens iff {brode} happens? > Well, no, some instance of broda might happen regardless whether or not brode happens. But at least one instance does happen some time after brode happens. Of course, if we are currently situated in time between those two incidents, broda hasn't happened yet. (For example, a 12-year-old who says, "I am eligible to vote in a national election after being learning my ABC's" is certainly making a true statement, and "brode" has occurred, but "broda" hasn't yet.) Bottom line, that's why context is still important in lojban as in any natural language. Yes, we CAN add enough cmavo, qualifying clauses, etc. to remove almost all ambiguity, but ultimately, there are still some baseline assumptions to be made, and in most cases the "natural" meaning would in fact be the intended one, so we can still speak simply. --gejyspa To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.