From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 12 17:37:41 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K6xIT-0007K7-EZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:37:41 -0700 Received: from narnia.blumen-schwarz.de ([80.190.195.21]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K6xIO-00071F-8C for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:37:41 -0700 Received: from n5812.n.pppool.de ([89.50.88.18]) by narnia.blumen-schwarz.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1K6xHi-0004Hc-05 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:37:30 +0200 From: namor To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: priority of se and na/nai in logical connectives Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:37:17 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <200806110037.05049.eldrikdo@gmail.com> <200806111604.31828.eldrikdo@gmail.com> <925d17560806110753m637b2513n404130ce79ffb5a4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560806110753m637b2513n404130ce79ffb5a4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Message-Id: <200806130237.19732.eldrikdo@gmail.com> X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: ------------- Start der SpamAssassin Auswertung --------------- Bei Fragen dazu bitte das Forum life.d.cvmx verwenden! Details der Inhaltsanalyse: (-1.7 Punkte, 5.0 benoetigt) -1.8 ALL_TRUSTED Nachricht wurde nur über vertrauenswürdige Rechner weitergeleitet 2.0 BAYES_50 BODY: Spamwahrscheinlichkeit nach Bayes-Test: 40-60% [score: 0.4781] -1.9 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list ---------------- Ende der SpamAssassin Auswertung ----------------- X-Spam-Score: 1.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: 12 X-Spam-Bar: + X-archive-position: 14497 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eldrikdo@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Am Mittwoch 11 Juni 2008 16:53:45 schrieb Jorge Llambías: > There is no {se} in {iju} or {inaju}, so how does that tell you > anything about which has priority? Ah, the example should just show that your third line isn't equal to the first, because the truth table is different, but as I ignored the 'se' by seeing only left and right bridi of the connective instead of brodE and brodA, it doesn't say anything. > If you add a {se}, it's {inaseju}, which has truth table TTFF, i.e. > the same as {iseju}, because the negation affects the > truth-irrelevant side. The fact that {inaseju} is grammatical and > {isenaju} ungrammatical also indicates that the negation always > negates the bridi on its side. Ok, it's easy to remember this way. I think I get it now. na and nai indeed have higher priority. But it seems it doesn't work to alter truth tables the way I did. TTFF =nai> TTFF =se> TFTF (the way I tried to modify the tables) (Here, nai affects only the logically irrelevant part and is thus ignored) TTFF =se> TFTF =senai[='na']> FTFT (this way, it works) (Due to the se, the nai logically becomes a na) TTFF =nai[='na']> FFTT =se> FTFT () Seems it doesn't matter whether 'na'/'nai' or 'se' has higher priority, as long as na and nai only affect their original bridi. When working on examples (as you did Jorge) it is probably most convenient to process 'na'/'nai' first and move the "na" together with the bridi when applying 'se'. When working on truth tables (as I did), I think it's easiest to apply the 'se' on 'na' or 'nai' first, making the former modify the right side and the latter modify the left side of the connective. The order in which you actually apply the 'se'- or 'na'/'nai'-changes on the truth table doesn't matter then. Example: broda segi'anai brode = broda segi'a na brode = na brode segi'a broda (= broda gi'a na brode) [=> TTFT] Truth Table: gi'a: TTTF =nai[='na']> TFTT =se> TTFT Of course, as na/nai binds to broda/brode, you can simply ignore the se. Thanks for your patient explaining xorxes -- mu'o mi'e namor To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.