From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Aug 11 09:43:20 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KSaUK-0002Tv-EM for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:43:20 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.170]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KSaUE-0002TJ-Ex for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:43:20 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so1930170wfg.25 for ; Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=CJRyAF4KfP1UXk/NSij6uCXgt21Q+9lWZcklAr7T0II=; b=sRgFM0h1x9OTnT5k/5DJPk55d56BG+dJ8T4r4MxWf/YgQVv4QG6yuzk1ENZe8VcX5z H8Fy8tdhNW8K5wAMDR4So3eAtGHydGgfmyi4h9ZQ/gev9exLqUKr57SQF3scSl+G1FiD LlSGiVKTRGYqXNwDsKFZ+y6dopZfkC52lB6f8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=UeN2hPZ/cnMh3CnO6yHBpnZRgzm7hXsYxZrWVTIXFVLgLz1vWRod85Ze7cbj8oWC4R 7GxN056sWtFDiVD2gP+E8QuTzNaoTrcZ64bbXsTnEvumVNbATzqGWdMUbCKBr4rUmQSR FdoYAbkbOHO0bzFatcUBGNJi+UOnQlErYXC/Q= Received: by 10.142.163.1 with SMTP id l1mr2203506wfe.122.1218472993187; Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.51.12 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:43:13 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] lojban, literary & living (was re: Book of Esther) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_56456_1421976.1218472993188" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14639 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_56456_1421976.1218472993188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 8/5/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > je'e mi jimpe lo du'u do pilno zo jbocevni lo nu jibni se smuni lo > mutce be lo ka certu be tu'a la lojban .iku'i mi na mutce be lo ka > certu .i mi ta'e bilga lo nu facki fi lo lojbo valsi fi'o se sitna la > jbovlaste .ijebo mi na jimpe so'e lojbo se bacru .i do li'a djuno lei smuni lei valsi .i do vlaste je ti'e masno djuno .i je ku'i je'u djuno za'a .i do clani citri ka'u djuno .i do sevzi pensi ru'a djuno .i do rapli jinvi za'a djuno .i ko nu frili pilno kei ji'a djuno Lojban was for a long time a literary language. No one spoke it and no one was expected to speak it. There are a lot of different ways a language can be used, equally valid ways. For instance if you're writing & reading not in real time and no one's fluent in the language, then it makes sense to come up with interesting new words all the time to exactly fit what you're trying to say, since the reader is going to be looking up the words either way. There's now a second Lojban (the Lojban of IRC) growing up in addition to the literary Lojban, a Lojban which is much simpler and much more fluent. It's not nearly as far as being a distinct dialect, but there are a lot of words and idioms always making the rounds on IRC which then seem unfamiliar here. Literary Lojban has always been a serious language, precisely plotted, fearing any wrong moves. Living Lojban is writhing with jokes, novelties, inaccuracies, sloppiness, playfulness. If we're serious about keeping Lojban from dialectizing, then I believe we should start bringing these two worlds together, making this conversation here more bilingual and more casual, so that the sounds and character and fluency of IRC's Lojban can connect with those who know Lojban more in its static form. I think that the main way to bring fluency is to speak less carefully, to let ourselves say the same words, the same idioms, the same pleasantries even. People who learn Lojban on IRC learn "de'a" from the phrase "de'a jundi" and these days have started to learn the place structure of "li'i" from the phrase "lo melbi ko li'i cerni". Strong patterns emerge & reinforce themselves, becoming the models that allow a more casual entrance into the language. Sometimes it's better to not always reinvent the wheel. No one that I know of is fluent in all of Lojban as formally defined-- I'm certainly not-- but there is a small community of people who are fluent in a particular, unconsciously defined subset of Lojban. I don't think it would be that hard at all for you, Gejyspa (or the other jbocei who I have heard say similarly humble things about their own fluency), to bring into your conscious & active mind those parts of your latent & passive knowledge of Lojban that correspond with Lojban as it is now spoken by those of us who are speaking it. It's just a matter of being exposed regularly enough to that particular *style*, those particular worn pathways through the cicricfoi (jungle) of Lojbanic possibility. I've been tending to use speaking at leisure on the list to talk more in my *own* style (towers of tanru, free word order, abundant evidentials & attitudinals), but since I'm seeing this disconnect between IRC-ese and mailing-list-ese, I'm going to try to remember to talk more IRC-style around here too. I'm going to say ".ui zei coi" and "zo'oi" and "cakla ckakla" and "makfa pinji". I was even thinking of using Class-0 fu'ivla! When's the last time you saw a Class-0 fu'ivla round these parts?! ki'a ko'a .i do noroi smugau fi zo ko'a .iji'a mi na jimpe fi lo smuni > be lo'u ca'i ko'e le'u .i la'e lu la teris po'u lo tirxu li'u cu > catni ma .i ji'a ("It is a sentence and the reason for me better > learning the word "ne'a"?????) > .u'u .i lo ve lisri be la .teris. bei do cu te cusku lu " .i le finpe cu spuda ty ko'a goi lu ko cadzu mo'i ne'a le rirxe fi'o seldei li ci .ibabo do viska ru li'u .i la teris. se gidva ko'a " li'u .i zo ko'a cu traji vrici se smuni ka'u mu'o mi'e se ckiku ------=_Part_56456_1421976.1218472993188 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/5/08, Michael Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

je'e mi jimpe lo du'u do pilno zo jbocevni lo nu jibni se smuni= lo
mutce be lo ka certu be tu'a la lojban .iku'i mi na mutce b= e lo ka
certu .i mi ta'e bilga lo nu facki fi lo lojbo valsi fi'= ;o se sitna la
jbovlaste .ijebo mi na jimpe so'e lojbo se bacru

.i do li'a djuno lei smuni lei valsi
.i do vlaste je ti&#= 39;e masno djuno .i je ku'i je'u djuno za'a
.i do clan= i citri ka'u djuno .i do sevzi pensi ru'a djuno .i do rapli jinvi z= a'a djuno
.i ko nu frili pilno kei ji'a djuno

Lojban was for a long time= a literary language.  No one spoke it and no one was expected to spea= k it.  There are a lot of different ways a language can be used, equal= ly valid ways.  For instance if you're writing & reading not i= n real time and no one's fluent in the language, th= en it makes sense to come up with interesting new words all the time to exa= ctly fit what you're trying to say, since the reader is&= nbsp;going to be looking up the words ei= ther way.

There's now a second Lojban (the Lojban of IRC) growing u= p in addition to the literary Lojban, a Lojban which is much simpler&n= bsp;and much more fluent.  It's not nearl= y as far as being a distinct dialect, bu= t there are a lot of words and idioms always&= nbsp;making the rounds on IRC which then seem=  unfamiliar here.  Literary Lojban has always=  been a serious language, precisely plotted, feari= ng any wrong moves.  Living Lojban is writhing wit= h jokes, novelties, inaccuracies, sloppiness, playfulness. <= br>
If we're serious about keeping Lojban from dialectizing, then I bel= ieve we should start bringing these two worlds together, making this conver= sation here more bilingual and more casual, so that the sounds an= d character and fluency of IRC's Lojban can connect with those who know= Lojban more in its static form.  I think that the main way to bring f= luency is to speak less carefully, to let ourselves say the same words, the= same idioms, the same pleasantries even.  People who learn Lojban on = IRC learn "de'a" from the phrase "de'a jundi" a= nd these days have started to learn the place structure of "li'i&q= uot; from the phrase "lo melbi ko li'i cerni".  Str= ong patterns emerge & reinforce themselves, becoming th= e models that allow a more casual entrance in= to the language.  Sometimes it's better to&nbs= p;not always reinvent the wheel.

No one that I know of is fluent in all of Lojban as formally defined-- = I'm certainly not-- but there is a small community of people who are fl= uent in a particular, unconsciously defined subset of Lojban.  I don&#= 39;t think it would be that hard at all for you, Gejyspa (or the other jboc= ei who I have heard say similarly humble things about their own fluency), t= o bring into your conscious & active mind those parts of your late= nt & passive knowledge of Lojban that correspond with Lojban as it is n= ow spoken by those of us who are speaking it.=   It's just a matter of being exposed&nbs= p;regularly enough to that particular *style*, those pa= rticular worn pathways through the cicricfoi (jungle)&n= bsp;of Lojbanic possibility.  

I've been tending to use speaking at leisure on the list to talk mo= re in my *own* style (towers of tanru, free word order, abundant evidential= s & attitudinals), but since I'm seeing this disconnect between IRC= -ese and mailing-list-ese, I'm going to try to remember to talk mo= re IRC-style around here too.  I'm going to sa= y ".ui zei coi" and "zo'oi" and "cak= la ckakla" and "makfa pinji".  I was even thinking= of using Class-0 fu'ivla!  When's the last time you saw a Cla= ss-0 fu'ivla round these parts?!
 

ki'a ko'a .i do noroi smugau fi zo ko'a .iji'a mi na jimpe= fi lo smuni
be  lo'u ca'i ko'e le'u .i la= 9;e lu la teris po'u lo tirxu li'u cu
catni ma  .i ji= 'a ("It is a sentence and the reason for me better
learning the word "ne'a"?????)

.u'u .i lo ve lisri be la .teris. bei do cu te cusku lu &qu= ot;
.i le finpe cu spuda ty ko'a goi lu ko cadzu mo'i ne'a l= e rirxe fi'o seldei li ci .ibabo do viska ru li'u
.i la teris. se gidva ko'a
" li'u

.i zo = ko'a cu traji vrici se smuni ka'u

mu&#= 39;o mi'e se ckiku

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