From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Aug 24 17:33:35 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KXQ1Q-0005t1-55 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:33:34 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.242]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KXQ1M-0005sK-IR for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:33:27 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so1183033rvf.46 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:33:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=cLy4XeO5uahBIkTGT9U6UvxD2nXf8YXjWUVYcnOOXGI=; b=wXVzii/PZ6q96UQlZeY3gku3S+ZZyos3svM9Cdx5I5oYs5Yp9jE3CdhTGOalLUHwuF bLurS+VSzbGQ9epO3hUJZmOlzr1AEebg0/QE9dywYbeQSoG2eB/0xay2pq+rpFLKh6iI B+cC+TbwAKpeTjweiTR5mxPlT1GZsoY7eHUxU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=ejNV4yE5fN+hrWINOCPbJqGCjZkjIfh/SaMGkqRj3NgUUYEqaxG1sURHc9HmL3ort6 BZFqP09IGA1HpwCZEYI+cokyy+xRysiSrYuyOjZWVgyAkntKpahWEmLttzMrQcMiiLLC 86Pyb6B6nj/9+dU0iVkMf/el80tMsdI0eTCVU= Received: by 10.141.197.8 with SMTP id z8mr1822384rvp.157.1219624402926; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.211.15 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560808241733j1e0cb2acmc48adcf86cf1512d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:33:22 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Dereferencing sumti referring to selbri In-Reply-To: <1219501639.22940.88.camel@weewam> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <1219501639.22940.88.camel@weewam> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14667 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Daniel Brockman wrote: > Now, {la'e zo cizra} refers to the > meaning of the word {cizra}, which gets us halfway, and {me} converts > the sumti into a grammatical selbri, so it would seem to take us the > rest of the way. Yes. > However, {me} only creates a kind of weak identity > predicate: {srana be la'e zo cizra} or {dunli be la'e zo cizra}. That's the ancient meaning of {me}, unfortunately still preserved in the ma'oste (and thus in jbovlaste). But even by CLL time the more useful "x1 is a referent of " meaning was already established. See: . (It wouldn't be a bad idea to update jbovlaste.) For "x1 is 's by relationship x2" I use "me moi". > What you can't do with a stage-1 fu'ivla, however, is import transient > verbs or other multi-argument predicates into Lojban. Notice though that it is grammatical to add as many sumti to a selbri as you want, so there is no problem in importing a multi-argument predicate with {me} and using it with more than one argument. You just have to figure out what the "obvious" role for the argument is in each case. > If you add {me'ei} to your toolbox, you can do this sort of thing > without resorting to the extra-linguistic hyphen device: > > .i mi na'e me'ei zo'oi fluent la .lojban. > > Does anyone think adding something like {me'ei} would be a good idea? I might buy "me'ei fluent", but "me'ei zo'oi fluent" doesn't seem like such a big improvement over "me la'e zo'oi fluent", or even "me la'oi fluent". mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.