From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Sep 11 16:52:37 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kdvxk-0000dM-1A for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:52:36 -0700 Received: from mx.freeshell.org ([192.94.73.19] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kdvxa-0000cc-D9 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:52:35 -0700 Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m8BNqJkX003209 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:52:20 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.2/8.12.8/Submit) id m8BNqIrq026924 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:52:18 GMT Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:52:18 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Can you read this and tell me if it is correct? Message-ID: <20080911235216.GA1035@sdf.lonestar.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14724 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list de'i li 11 pi'e 09 pi'e 2008 la'o fy. arpgme .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > Ok, I understand "cu" now. It's like "is" when used with a noun + adjective. > > So it's noun + cu + adjective. "Cu" needs to desperate these words to that no > one misunderstands. .skamyxatra You're right that "{cu}" is needed to separate the words (I assume that's what you meant to type), but it's not really correct to compare it to "is." First of all, the "is" is built into the definition of the adjective*, and using it as the verb (or "{selbri}") of the sentence automatically makes the "is" part of the English translation. The entire purpose of "{cu}" is to separate a {bridi}'s {selbri} from any {selbri} that come immediately before it (e.g., inside a {sumti}); without the "{cu}", the {selbri} run together into one long {selbri}. la'o fy. arpgme .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > What I DON'T understand is how "my desire" translates into "le se djica be > mi". Why is "se" there? I thought "se" was used to switch positions between > two words? Can I just write "le djica be mi"? If not, what would "le djica be > mi" mean? > > Can someone elaborate on how "be" should be used? .skamyxatra Pay close attention to the definition of "{djica}": "x1 desires/wants/wishes x2 (event/state) for purpose x3." When you place a "{le}" in front of a {selbri}, you create a {sumti} which is capable of filling the x1 place of that {selbri}. Thus, "{le djica}" is a person or entity who desires something -- "the desirer." The "{se}" causes the x1 and x2 places of a {selbri} to be switched, so "{le se}" gives you a {sumti} that fills the x2 place of the affected {selbri}; thus, "{le se djica}" is the event or state being desired, i.e., the desire itself. "{be}" allows you to fill in the places of a {selbri} that is already being used inside a {sumti} (technically, it's a lot more complicated than that, but it's a good enough explanation for now). Attaching "{be mi}" to a {sumti} limits it to things which take the x1 place of the {selbri} and have "{mi}" ("I", "me") as the x2 place of that {selbri}. Thus, "{le se djica be mi}" is a thing which is desired by the speaker; in other words, "my desire." "{le djica be mi}" is rather nonsensical (and either grammatically or semantically incorrect) and roughly means "the thing which desires the event or state that is I." la'o fy. arpgme .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > Lojban is so difficult... (:cry:) .skamyxatra You'll get used to it. Just stop thinking like a natural language speaker. mu'omi'e la'o gy. Minimiscience .gy. * Important side note: In English, speakers sometimes use nouns as verbs, "verbing" them. In Lojban, {brivla} (words other than names & grammatical operators) start out as verbs and are nouned, adjectified, & adverbialized as needed. Hence, "{melbi}" in its default state as a verb (a.k.a. a "{selbri}") means "is beautiful." Used as a noun (or "{sumti}"), "{le melbi}" is a thing which is beatiful. Used to modify another {brivla} in a {tanru}, "{melbi}" acts like an adjective or adverb (depending on how the {tanru} is being used) that means "beautiful" or "beautifully" (literally, "of type 'beautiful'"). -- mi pu klama .i mi pu viska .i mi pu fanva fi la lojban. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.