From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Nov 08 01:23:01 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kyk21-0002XG-Lr for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:23:01 -0800 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.191]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kyk1v-0002W0-As for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:23:01 -0800 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i2so1696642mue.6 for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:22:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=kZJ2cXI5WYzN0s/3w7Yt1l7gyppjTysdfj3eddQAy0o=; b=GI/bM7Yc8C4CmUCsE3eQOjqxhDe185eAW5x+IudLpFfp+n5UsmNXbOCpHrR5RQb3Xe f/FyDrkhyla/J77QAwMRMrRK2WPaN/yZYvY9UV7njsst+ww0VjzKsHFLGkLzcrMZNdk1 d419ctSiQpmb7zSBxxeeiCZq+3eZFkcBrJL+w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=X/juISwP4OU5zYGuSISGTDof9SL2BOsKDu56YlflqwowEzVKy/jIQbH5pmjMck4F8n lajxcIvcUG3a7uSMZQjsjiFCRRnP8i7A6Z6T48Qd9ZeSXKWKMctm25zC8SXV/x8GggqG kqwPCXmfL0X4cCoPGBGUpiyv6b+UC2vXv82vE= Received: by 10.103.12.16 with SMTP id p16mr2338547mui.89.1226136168651; Sat, 08 Nov 2008 01:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.199.18 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Nov 2008 01:22:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4de8c3930811080122n7f91eea3v53fc4cce02d4d343@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 10:22:48 +0100 From: tijlan To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce In-Reply-To: <200811072307.26737.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_55418_27312792.1226136168649" References: <2f91285f0810260835h78654a7dr11b5b5c0957bce70@mail.gmail.com> <200811072307.26737.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3b117e108829ccb4 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14957 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_55418_27312792.1226136168649 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 2008/11/8 Pierre Abbat > On Sunday 26 October 2008 11:35:57 tijlan wrote: > > no sai zo'e ga'i vi cipni jonai vlilydanlu > > "zo'e ga'i", IIRR, means that the speaker feels haughtiness toward zo'e, > which > doesn't make much sense. Oh, it seems I got it wrong all the way. This "zo'e" should be an object of the speaker's contempt. On the contrary, the first message on the first door, which I started with "doi ro do ga'i", should reflect the honorific speech. So "zo'e ga'inai" is the right one? I think "vlilydanlu" should be "mabru". A deer, mentioned in the next > utterance, isn't what I'd call a vlilydanlu, although the act of shooting a > deer is certainly vlile. Maybe it could be "cicymabru". Originally "kemono", it should translate to something like "beast" in English. It's meant to be a contrast to "cipni" in fierceness. The speaker is emphasizing the absence of objects to hunt by referring to a wide range from "birds" to "beasts". A deer can be somewhere between the two polarities. > .ei mutce pluka ba'a > > "ei" doesn't make much sense. "As to offering a few bullets to the side of > a > deer's belly, I am *obliged* that it would be very pleasing, which I look > forward to." He is feeling *non-freedom* ("einainai") in the sense that it must be the case that, if he shoots a deer, it will very please him. And this pleasure is what he's looking forward to. > cmana condi > > Is that a lake or depression on a mountaintop? Originally "yama-oku" ("mountain-deep/inside"), it means that the x1 is a place you would reach if you walk for some time toward the center of a mountain or of a group of mountains. I had in mind something like this: http://hanaumiyama.cocolog-nifty.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/19/1.jpg > flirytcima > > face-weather? Originally "kao-iro" ("face-colour"), it's based on the idea that faces are expressive of psychological climate. > cmanyjipci > > mountain-chicken? The English translation says "game birds". What's the > original say? "Yama-dori" ("mountain-bird"), or "copper pheasant" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Pheasant). I wanted to avoid using "cipni", which is too general while "copper phesant" is specific enough, and which might cause a confusion with the earlier "cipni", the one the guys are looking for in the mountain. Any suggestion? > .a'inaisai .i ti to'eki'unai lo za'i tai vanbi ce'u kei ca'a kagni stuzi > > zo'e > > I can't quite make sense of this. "Not despite being an environment of > this, > it actually is a corporation site"? "to'eki'unai" is "not prevented by reason ..." ("to'eki'u" being "prevented by reason ..."). Which gives "despite being surrounded by such an environment" for the sumtcita. By "kagni" I meant "business". Maybe "cuntu" is better. The speaker is surprised by the fact that, in the midst of such an empty mountain(s) (no birds, no beasts), there is actually a business (restaurant) going on. > ni'i ma fe'eso'iroi vorme > > "ni'i" means a logical reason. One of the other whys probably would make > more > sense. The speaker is not questioning a specific why. And, in my opinion, "ni'i" is a generic one, encompassing the other whys, like "nu" is to the other NUs. The sentence can be rephrased as: ma nibli lo nu fe'eso'iroi vorme This "ma" can be answered by either "krinu" or "mukti" or "rinka" or "se jalge", depending on what it actually turns out to be. > ne'i lo ze'o le vorme ku manku cu bacru lu > > sa'ei .niaaon.kuaan.gorgor. > > li'u > > Did the dogs say "sa'ei", or did they just say "niaaon.kuaan.gorgor"? I > suspect the latter, which is grammatical according to jbofi'e. > Is "sa'a" within "lu ... li'u" considered to be an actual part of the quoted utterance? I think not. If something can be skipped over like that, so should "sa'ei" be too, shouldn't it? And it's an experimental cmavo; what may be obvious to humans may not already be so to jbofi'e. > .gasagasas > > I think that should be "gasagasag" or "gasagas". Adding an "s" at the end > breaks the pattern. Originally "gasagasa", it's one of the Japanese ways of expressing the sounds of friction/scraping/rubbing, along with "sarasara", "zarazara", "sharishari", "fusafusa", "pasapasa", and so forth. As you can see, "s" is more common than "g" for the sounds of this kind. Other justifications are: phonetically, "s" in both Japanese and Lojban is fricative, which conceptually parallels to the fact that what "gasagasa" represents is the friction of the grass; and the word for "grass" in Lojban begins with an "s" ;) mu'o mi'e tijlan ------=_Part_55418_27312792.1226136168649 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline 2008/11/8 Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu>
On Sunday 26 October 2008 11:35:57 tijlan wrote:
> no sai zo'e ga'i vi cipni jonai vlilydanlu

"zo'e ga'i", IIRR, means that the speaker feels haughtiness toward zo'e, which
doesn't make much sense.

Oh, it seems I got it wrong all the way. This "zo'e" should be an object of the speaker's contempt. On the contrary, the first message on the first door, which I started with "doi ro do ga'i", should reflect the honorific speech. So "zo'e ga'inai" is the right one?


I think "vlilydanlu" should be "mabru". A deer, mentioned in the next
utterance, isn't what I'd call a vlilydanlu, although the act of shooting a
deer is certainly vlile. Maybe it could be "cicymabru".

Originally "kemono", it should translate to something like "beast" in English. It's meant to be a contrast to "cipni" in fierceness. The speaker is emphasizing the absence of objects to hunt by referring to a wide range from "birds" to "beasts". A deer can be somewhere between the two polarities.


> .ei mutce pluka ba'a

"ei" doesn't make much sense. "As to offering a few bullets to the side of a
deer's belly, I am *obliged* that it would be very pleasing, which I look
forward to."

He is feeling *non-freedom* ("einainai") in the sense that it must be the case that, if he shoots a deer, it will very please him. And this pleasure is what he's looking forward to.


> cmana condi

Is that a lake or depression on a mountaintop?

Originally "yama-oku" ("mountain-deep/inside"), it means that the x1 is a place you would reach if you walk for some time toward the center of a mountain or of a group of mountains. I had in mind something like this:
http://hanaumiyama.cocolog-nifty.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/19/1.jpg


> flirytcima

face-weather?

Originally "kao-iro" ("face-colour"), it's based on the idea that faces are expressive of psychological climate.


> cmanyjipci

mountain-chicken? The English translation says "game birds". What's the
original say?

"Yama-dori" ("mountain-bird"), or "copper pheasant" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Pheasant). I wanted to avoid using "cipni", which is too general while "copper phesant" is specific enough, and which might cause a confusion with the earlier "cipni", the one the guys are looking for in the mountain.

Any suggestion?


> .a'inaisai .i ti to'eki'unai lo za'i tai vanbi ce'u kei ca'a kagni stuzi
> zo'e

I can't quite make sense of this. "Not despite being an environment of this,
it actually is a corporation site"?

"to'eki'unai" is "not prevented by reason ..." ("to'eki'u" being "prevented by reason ..."). Which gives "despite being surrounded by such an environment" for the sumtcita.

By "kagni" I meant "business". Maybe "cuntu" is better.

The speaker is surprised by the fact that, in the midst of such an empty mountain(s) (no birds, no beasts), there is actually a business (restaurant) going on.


> ni'i ma fe'eso'iroi vorme

"ni'i" means a logical reason. One of the other whys probably would make more
sense.

The speaker is not questioning a specific why. And, in my opinion, "ni'i" is a generic one, encompassing the other whys, like "nu" is to the other NUs. The sentence can be rephrased as:

ma nibli lo nu fe'eso'iroi vorme

This "ma" can be answered by either "krinu" or "mukti" or "rinka" or "se jalge", depending on what it actually turns out to be.


> ne'i lo ze'o le vorme ku manku cu bacru lu
>  sa'ei .niaaon.kuaan.gorgor.
>  li'u

Did the dogs say "sa'ei", or did they just say "niaaon.kuaan.gorgor"? I
suspect the latter, which is grammatical according to jbofi'e.

Is "sa'a" within "lu ... li'u" considered to be an actual part of the quoted utterance? I think not. If something can be skipped over like that, so should "sa'ei" be too, shouldn't it? And it's an experimental cmavo; what may be obvious to humans may not already be so to jbofi'e.


> .gasagasas

I think that should be "gasagasag" or "gasagas". Adding an "s" at the end
breaks the pattern.

Originally "gasagasa", it's one of the Japanese ways of expressing the sounds of friction/scraping/rubbing, along with "sarasara", "zarazara", "sharishari", "fusafusa", "pasapasa", and so forth. As you can see, "s" is more common than "g" for the sounds of this kind. Other justifications are: phonetically, "s" in both Japanese and Lojban is fricative, which conceptually parallels to the fact that what "gasagasa" represents is the friction of the grass; and the word for "grass" in Lojban begins with an "s" ;)


mu'o mi'e tijlan
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