From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Nov 08 18:54:51 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kz0Ru-0000AH-Pv for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:54:51 -0800 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Kz0Rh-00009q-Op for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 08 Nov 2008 18:54:44 -0800 Received: from chausie ([71.75.215.96]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20081109025431.MGUD28878.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@chausie> for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 02:54:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F501957 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 2008 21:54:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 22:54:22 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <2f91285f0810260835h78654a7dr11b5b5c0957bce70@mail.gmail.com> <200811072307.26737.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4de8c3930811080122n7f91eea3v53fc4cce02d4d343@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4de8c3930811080122n7f91eea3v53fc4cce02d4d343@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200811082154.23708.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14964 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Saturday 08 November 2008 04:22:48 tijlan wrote: > 2008/11/8 Pierre Abbat > > > On Sunday 26 October 2008 11:35:57 tijlan wrote: > > > no sai zo'e ga'i vi cipni jonai vlilydanlu > > > > "zo'e ga'i", IIRR, means that the speaker feels haughtiness toward zo'e, > > which > > doesn't make much sense. > > Oh, it seems I got it wrong all the way. This "zo'e" should be an object of > the speaker's contempt. On the contrary, the first message on the first > door, which I started with "doi ro do ga'i", should reflect the honorific > speech. So "zo'e ga'inai" is the right one? I'm not sure which way "ga'i" goes, but it seems strange to honor or contempt a word that's just a placeholder. > Originally "kemono", it should translate to something like "beast" in > English. It's meant to be a contrast to "cipni" in fierceness. The speaker > is emphasizing the absence of objects to hunt by referring to a wide range > from "birds" to "beasts". A deer can be somewhere between the two > polarities. Hmm, there are vlilycpi also, such as eagles and shrikes. I'm not sure what word to use for "kemono", but "bi'i' may make sense between them. > Originally "kao-iro" ("face-colour"), it's based on the idea that faces are > expressive of psychological climate. I think that's a good one. > "Yama-dori" ("mountain-bird"), or "copper pheasant" ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Pheasant). I wanted to avoid using > "cipni", which is too general while "copper phesant" is specific enough, > and which might cause a confusion with the earlier "cipni", the one the > guys are looking for in the mountain. > > Any suggestion? "ma'arjipci" is good. Could you check how wide a taxon it should refer to (just the Copper Pheasant, or the genus, or any pheasant) and add it to jbovlaste? I'll do the same with "fi'orxruki", which I made up many moons ago. > > ni'i ma fe'eso'iroi vorme > > > > "ni'i" means a logical reason. One of the other whys probably would make > > more > > sense. > > The speaker is not questioning a specific why. And, in my opinion, "ni'i" > is a generic one, encompassing the other whys, like "nu" is to the other > NUs. The sentence can be rephrased as: > > ma nibli lo nu fe'eso'iroi vorme > > This "ma" can be answered by either "krinu" or "mukti" or "rinka" or "se > jalge", depending on what it actually turns out to be. I agree with xorxes that "ki'u" is the most general. I'd like to hear a Russian's opinion though. Russian has three words for "why". > Is "sa'a" within "lu ... li'u" considered to be an actual part of the > quoted utterance? I think not. If something can be skipped over like that, > so should "sa'ei" be too, shouldn't it? And it's an experimental cmavo; > what may be obvious to humans may not already be so to jbofi'e. "sa'a" marks the previous word as not being part of the quoted utterance; "sa'ei" marks the next word as being an ideophone. You could say "sa'ei sa'a niaaon.kuaan.gorgor", but that sounds like the dog uttered an ideophone and forgot to mark it as such. The dog was just making noises. So I think that dropping "sa'a" is better. In the sentences that are bare quotes, without "le co'e cu cusku", "sa'ei" should be left in. phma To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.