From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 10 09:18:08 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:18:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KzaOr-0006kD-Mi for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:18:07 -0800 Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.156]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KzaOY-0006iy-0b for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:18:05 -0800 Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 4so1033104yxp.46 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:17:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Dnf7bBElvJIcFvnz7wn4Q3OdIZm9lQx4ai8KU8niSCY=; b=qnxhpSp4clMWwdVXl2p0k5u72/EK+tJkHmujgRtNxSLRkaYDua4BjNtJmP1iNGAI7+ j7Uffq43i0aXxRbFgWvprsgy0grvLXsXky7CyuMz2HuJvcR7Bi8Cm47IBQ3X2imJqVFj eeIXVk4SYgzlwvvhVyyU41MG49Of0WmClOvNo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Kr11077sY7+acwSni7Dekg4IIC/C+K9cA9hTBFIxE7j7hDWcoXUJnTdn4Hraa+KwX3 fyyPQKgPXXnEEjqJ5zXj8EheVMD6izWtizjiinsxg+CEUgmdzmBbLelZohqd/yPFDKAW EXeldhOcRCOn/U+M+BSBO61irUSlkMDakwm/k= Received: by 10.103.182.3 with SMTP id j3mr3870380mup.113.1226337456786; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:17:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.199.18 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:17:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4de8c3930811100917r15b2157bic39665d299d0f224@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:17:36 +0100 From: tijlan To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce In-Reply-To: <925d17560811100828k50ff608ehc6a5ae96446807ef@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0810260835h78654a7dr11b5b5c0957bce70@mail.gmail.com> <200811072307.26737.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4de8c3930811080122n7f91eea3v53fc4cce02d4d343@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560811081102l72b38fefp6a3adae34d562d71@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560811100828k50ff608ehc6a5ae96446807ef@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 888eedc0342de9e0 X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 14977 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list 2008/11/10 Jorge Llambías : > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: >> >> I've always thought that {se ja'e ma} is the most general version. It's >> just >> "as a result of", without specifying what kind of result. > > I think {se jalge} definitely covers {rinka}, but I'm not sure it > covers all kinds of {mukti}. A motive can be an event that is > (potentially) in the future of the event it motivates. Can a result > occur before what it results from? For example: > > lo nu mi ba te vecnu lo matne cu mukti lo nu mi klama le zarci > I will buy butter motivates I go to the market. > I go to the market to buy butter. > > lo nu mi ba te vecnu lo matne cu krinu lo nu mi klama le zarci > I will buy butter is the reason I go to the market. > I go to the market because I will buy butter. > > both sound acceptable. I'm not sure about: > > ? lo nu mi klama le zarci cu jalge lo nu mi ba te vecnu lo matne > ? I go to the market is the resut of I will buy butter. In this case I think it's essential that we retain the "lo nu" parts as we interpret the sentences: lo nu mi ba te vecnu lo matne cu mukti lo nu mi klama le zarci The (ideal) event "I will buy butter" motivates the (actual) event "I go to the market". lo nu mi ba te vecnu lo matne cu krinu lo nu mi klama le zarci The (ideal) event "I will buy butter" justifies the (actual) event "I go to the market". lo nu mi klama le zarci cu jalge lo nu mi ba te vecnu lo matne The (actual) event "I go to the market" results from the (ideal) event "I will buy butter". mu'o mi'e tijlan To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.