From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Nov 12 18:07:44 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0RcV-0000E5-CL for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:07:44 -0800 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.184]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0RcS-0000Du-Fj for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:07:43 -0800 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 30so353896nfu.46 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:07:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=PMLzUx55pCxTyiwxD0EG50YAoANUym54rSFrUQrHRhc=; b=bwoxIdog06QXtvYX18x48zS26b2reby4uy/KmpxvrMntWrcF8RhHFJteEEzfVhmpP5 2qVhWOGTCK8On9vLAFTHq5vi6yrIKnUuXKCbMaA/KEd1qB000iOBdoFPXFgMP/A4Lyz2 cYOQtJVCzvHrWUtNEvZeofFcihWbTyVpF0J00= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=N1Xq+puFPDujS6ZiI7TjF7xWHoTemVEOmxO66WKFBK1NpIhQBY2QOxq5TdNkNU8v4W DoU7hFsbNWJIIxC77N6TPoMGugR3FpoCCd/qNjKk8HPJCAaOzbLKPo1tgsZR83gwJISA Q65lWu5ltWmBO65NJV/ODEQqabV/sfE7mMGms= Received: by 10.103.182.3 with SMTP id j3mr5637312mup.113.1226542058255; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.173.4 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:07:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <16e4f29a0811121807h7324615fn1b0780705d3acffa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 18:07:38 -0800 From: "Elias Friedman" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce In-Reply-To: <4de8c3930811120733s2f9d5eeaxf42a1d4f37421d34@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14046_16017664.1226542058254" References: <2f91285f0810260835h78654a7dr11b5b5c0957bce70@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811101558j1799d99bj7900b70c0b55c6a@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811101800r501676d5id975aa96c932c19b@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811101800y7ede0d46vc027081f0bd1179f@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811101950t59fa46cfof4fd83489ddcd8fd@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811110605u73597c74ye280491656add7e8@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811111706t4e27477fu61c4e669360a1793@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811111904s4868767ci5dff53f0cf140a24@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811112039o4253bb8aqc979b3210ce67c3@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811120733s2f9d5eeaxf42a1d4f37421d34@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15015 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: skierb27@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_14046_16017664.1226542058254 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Jorge, the situations you have mentioned in your message are not using "motive" correctly; in place of "motive", those statements should be using "action". A motive is a reason for someone to do something; in the situations you have mentioned, the "to do something is incorrectly being called a motive. For example, in the situation "to cover up a politically embarrassing problem for his bosses", the person's motive is, most likely, the necessity of keeping his job. Also, in the situation "to attract votes from the border states", the person's motive is, most likely, his or her desire to win the election. A goal of an action cannot be a motive of the same action; however, the necessity of such a goal's realization can be a motive of the action. I have also performed a Google search for "his motive was to", and I came across many results following my definition of "motive"; I saw very few usages in the manner you described. tijlan, It does not matter whether or not you said that "to buy butter" was an action, as it is an action regardlessly. "To buy butter" is not an intention. Whether or not one can be motivated by ideas is not relevant, as "to buy butter" is not a motivational idea. Whether or not "I will buy butter" is an action or an idea is not relevant; "I will buy butter" is still not an intention. If someone recalled his or her intent to buy butter, the intent is not a motive for the person to recall the state "I have run out of butter, and I need butter"; rather, the person would be motivated to recall such a state by his or her desire or need to recall. "I need butter" is a mukti, as "I need butter" is a motive for an event, the purchase of butter; "I have run out of butter" is a krinu, as "I have run out of butter" is the reason for the person's need of butter. A person's will by itself cannot serve as a motive, as a motive is a reason for someone to do something. Although a person's intention can condition his or her action, his or her intention is not a condition. ------=_Part_14046_16017664.1226542058254 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Jorge, the situations you have mentioned in your message are not using "motive" correctly; in place of "motive", those statements should be using "action".  A motive is a reason for someone to do something; in the situations you have mentioned, the "to do something
 is incorrectly being called a motive.

For example, in the situation "to cover up a politically embarrassing problem for his bosses", the person's motive is, most likely, the necessity of keeping his job.

Also, in the situation "to attract votes from the border states", the person's motive is, most likely, his or her desire to win the election.

A goal of an action cannot be a motive of the same action; however, the necessity of such a goal's realization can be a motive of the action.

I have also performed a Google search for "his motive was to", and I came across many results following my definition of "motive"; I saw very few usages in the manner you described.


tijlan,
It does not matter whether or not you said that "to buy butter" was an action, as it is an action regardlessly.  "To buy butter" is not an intention.  Whether or not one can be motivated by ideas is not relevant, as "to buy butter" is not a motivational idea.

Whether or not "I will buy butter" is an action or an idea is not relevant; "I will buy butter" is still not an intention.

If someone recalled his or her intent to buy butter, the intent is not a motive for the person to recall the state "I have run out of butter, and I need butter"; rather, the person would be motivated to recall such a state by his or her desire or need to recall.

"I need butter" is a mukti, as "I need butter" is a motive for an event, the purchase of butter; "I have run out of butter" is a krinu, as "I have run out of butter" is the reason for the person's need of butter.

A person's will by itself cannot serve as a motive, as a motive is a reason for someone to do something.

Although a person's intention can condition his or her action, his or her intention is not a condition.
------=_Part_14046_16017664.1226542058254-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.