From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Nov 13 04:16:37 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:16:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0b7k-0000z5-Uh for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:16:37 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.240]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0b7h-0000yx-J1 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:16:36 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so869044rvf.46 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:16:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=4fWlPGdGSF2TuCKit0UD0/77PB8ChHlynEkBZjYN5Q4=; b=jJuaE38UZHK6UHuCzFCHWVAn2MKt8wEVEm0JuPfzu8yblbtkoDxonrmw/42PcAlCxC bvcGgETtb9dccrIPTkYGlkqw3qx0jucjmAl0/LEqpeRU2n3H0zH7yG5wnEkj3QKGlQI/ l3iowTX7OTG0MwPUcQg75t1ZL6+J+Oo3LgKkc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=YzBnReFiJ5vuufuAEOYz3y+QFmCT/o9n+xc3O/qTRFFRCPvXAUbHwJriRElZdOWA2y ykzutam2IfwNINJg9z/4FUehpeQwJD34emP3OEl3ZWFRj0xxrmUPCNF593+jsQlz+tHd Q6N4gbzdS+nSf0B3YdY4QF50gq2waS3cDnUQg= Received: by 10.140.204.7 with SMTP id b7mr5464698rvg.98.1226578592766; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.194.15 with HTTP; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:16:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560811130416o3f6e3523q8884f49adde5c658@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:16:32 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: le gusta co minde mutce In-Reply-To: <16e4f29a0811121807h7324615fn1b0780705d3acffa@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0810260835h78654a7dr11b5b5c0957bce70@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811101800r501676d5id975aa96c932c19b@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811101800y7ede0d46vc027081f0bd1179f@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811101950t59fa46cfof4fd83489ddcd8fd@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811110605u73597c74ye280491656add7e8@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811111706t4e27477fu61c4e669360a1793@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811111904s4868767ci5dff53f0cf140a24@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811112039o4253bb8aqc979b3210ce67c3@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930811120733s2f9d5eeaxf42a1d4f37421d34@mail.gmail.com> <16e4f29a0811121807h7324615fn1b0780705d3acffa@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15016 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Elias Friedman wrote: > Jorge, the situations you have mentioned in your message are not using > "motive" correctly; in place of "motive", those statements should be using > "action". If you replace "motive" with "action" in those sentences, the meaning changes: Compare: (1) his motive was to attract votes from the border states (2) his action was to attract votes from the border states (1) doesn't say that he attracted votes from border states: he did something else with the goal of attracting votes from the border states (which goal may or may not have been attained). (2) says that he did attract votes from the border states. > A motive is a reason for someone to do something; Yes, certainly. A motive is whatever moves someone to do something. > in the > situations you have mentioned, the "to do something > is incorrectly being called a motive. It's the goal that moved them to do whatever it is they did. Here's a dictionary definition of "motive": 1. something that causes a person to act in a certain way, do a certain thing, etc.; incentive. 2. the goal or object of a person's actions: Her motive was revenge. The examples I gave are all of sense 2. > For example, in the situation "to cover up a politically embarrassing > problem for his bosses", the person's motive is, most likely, the necessity > of keeping his job. Yes, that's probably part of the chain of motives: in order to keep their job, they needed to cover up the embarrassing problem, and in order to cover up the problem, they did whatever it is they did. But it doesn't matter what the "real" motive behind their action is, the point is what kind of thing can properly be claimed as a motive. "To cover up a politically embarrassing problem" is something that can be claimed as a motive. Whether or not deep down that was the real or most important motive is a separate issue. > Also, in the situation "to attract votes from the border states", the > person's motive is, most likely, his or her desire to win the election. > A goal of an action cannot be a motive of the same action; however, the > necessity of such a goal's realization can be a motive of the action. Here's the context for that quote: "An Op-Ed article Wednesday on doing away with the office of vice president indicated that President Lincoln's motive for choosing his second-term running mate, Andrew Johnson, was to carry Tennessee. In fact, his motive was to attract votes from the border states;" Lincoln's action was choosing Johnson as his running mate. His motive for that action, according to the Op-Ed article, was to carry Tennessee. His real motive, according to this other article, was to attract votes from the border states. > I have also performed a Google search for "his motive was to", and I came > across many results following my definition of "motive"; I saw very few > usages in the manner you described. The ones I gave were all from the first page of hits, I didn't have to look hard for them. And I have no problem with your definition. But for some reason you want to exclude the goals of an action as something that can move someone to carry out that action. > tijlan, > It does not matter whether or not you said that "to buy butter" was an > action, as it is an action regardlessly. "To buy butter" is not an > intention. But "my intention is to buy butter" seems like a normal thing to say. What is an intention if not something that someone intends to do? mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.