From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 17 13:17:34 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L2BTS-0005Si-Ll for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:17:34 -0800 Received: from mx.freeshell.org ([192.94.73.19] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L2BTK-0005SG-0z for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:17:34 -0800 Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mAHLHHSG025190 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:17:17 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.2/8.12.8/Submit) id mAHLHHLJ028114 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:17:17 GMT Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:17:17 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: x3 of djuno and krici Message-ID: <20081117211715.GA1123@sdf.lonestar.org> References: <3ccac5f10811171210t5cfb071etb22aa0dca5040816@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3ccac5f10811171210t5cfb071etb22aa0dca5040816@mail.gmail.com> Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15055 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list de'i li 17 pi'e 11 pi'e 2008 la'o fy. Cyril Slobin .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > I am confused: what is the intended usage of x3 in djuno, krici, > and probably others? I don't see any difference in meaning in: > > mi djuno ledu'u da prami de ku da > > and > > mi djuno ledu'u da prami de ku de > > Of course I can say in English "I know about him that he loves her" > and "I know about her that he loves her", but I can not explain how > and why are they different. .skamyxatra In this case, the x3 place is used to change the focus of the statement that you know; while both sentences mean the same thing in the end, you are emphasising different things you know about in each. Besides that, the x3 place can also be used to specify the subject area of a statement that does not explicitly give a frame of reference, e.g., "{mi djuno lodu'u ro sumti cu cinse kei la la'oban.}" -- "I know that all nouns have gender in Latin." If you didn't specify the x3 place, the sentence would be unclear as to what nouns you are referring to, as obviously not all nouns in all languages have gender. (Of course, you could use "{ma'i}" within the abstraction instead, but Lojban has never claimed to be absolutely minimal.) Additionally, if the x2 place of "{djuno}" is unspecified, the x3 place can be used to make a general statement about the area(s) of your knowledge, e.g., "{mi djuno fi loi skami}" ("I know about computers") can be used to profess your expertise in computers without having to get specific about exactly what you know. There are probably some other uses for the x3 place, but these should give you a good idea of how it can be used. mu'omi'e la'o gy. Minimiscience .gy. -- ko senpi le du'u do bilga lenu senpi To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.