From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 07 14:04:31 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L9Rjq-0001SQ-9U for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:04:31 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.249]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L9Rjj-0001R0-NT for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:04:29 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so950314rvf.46 for ; Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:04:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=b3EHpOC7ZGSGRkLnvkzaqF+6jM9CguF8ZxLPV7cUB7I=; b=wrH0XyjHXJQIV4pZczTzhEbsrXF7JKGbjiMmoJj39/uOSmnj5LDy2p3eH+X2+CMc3e XKYLZ0DNvANbrSOn9OTKzqs/XRlcr9NVKBQHboveUPweyx08GQaOg5bQcZK2qIX2A8jb 1ON4SH+wwiIAk9S0JaTQHHIWOozVAcWDD0fE0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=r71nmQWoZxu6Uq8w6vpDNs2lCdsQFKQqe3EOsMEaKG/Ue3cVJ/O+RlZ9rQfDBg3/rs Yg/skPe54OBgEDFLH+OEq9d/ThcJW53OvQX70RXEByV2z5oeT5BW8zeK9FcmirmcmhvM Qx53l4Ggs2LVv+DAeudtbGwaKgnwMVZpCnSlI= Received: by 10.141.146.4 with SMTP id y4mr1303707rvn.88.1228687461833; Sun, 07 Dec 2008 14:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.194.15 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Dec 2008 14:04:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560812071404w3e4229cblb7e4349851f3bd95@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:04:21 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: x2 of klani In-Reply-To: <20081207200948.GG13298@nvg.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20081207200948.GG13298@nvg.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15098 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > > klani2 is a stumbling block to me, as it is not obvious what the x2 in the gismu definitions refers to: > x1 is a quantity quantified/measured/enumerated by x2 (quantifier) on scale x3 (si'o) > > WordNet lists two senses of "quantifier": > 1. (logic) a word (such as 'some' or 'all' or 'no') that binds the variables in a logical proposition > 2. (grammar) a word that expresses a quantity (as 'fifteen' or 'many') > > Neither of these seem appropriate. But both correspond to the cmavo of PA, and that's how "quantifier" is always used in Lojban. As I understand it, {klani} is the general case of mitre/litce/grake/cacra/etc. all of which use a number (or other quantifier) in x2. > So in general, it seems that users of Lojban believe that what goes into one of the places is the description of some substance, and another of the places is some indication of how much there is of that substance. Like all measure words. > But they don't seem to agree on which is which -- in the first example, it seems that the quantity goes into the x1 and the mass of stuff goes into x2, while in the other examples, the situation is reversed. I think the first was just an oversight. The general rule for measure words is to have the stuff in x1 and the number in x2. > Furthermore, what type of sumti can go into the x2? Is it a number? (Jorge's example is the only one that fills in the x2 explicitly.) But if it is a number, how can it also be a spoon, as the place structure of {muclai} seems to imply? It can't. The spoon should define the scale somehow. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.