From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 17 08:53:45 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:53:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LCzeb-0003Vc-Fi for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:53:45 -0800 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LCzeX-0003UE-Fx for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:53:45 -0800 Received: (qmail 14676 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Dec 2008 16:53:35 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=qPapt3aH394WDrmeAhIyh3kCKQ1J8Ml30o0oGrJHNesSqMEtz31mOee+LBfdzOlLUR7eZi7YsMLLVVaqA0czr/C57G6d1pJWf1B+v+3j4J3ljly9dgfou/ScYcHwHsdbYabtnUglNhMQ54+9K8KsM/t5WHujXinRf6ZPrcdh9iQ=; X-YMail-OSG: d5Rbn3UVM1n4TyIWQB7tb.gzC2FAjlzN.kTaWdCMpEMxvstRJWq0XS4LCGfmYEJWz69e7wQnjYtDapgq33wwIW64x17NJRDYGKjVlNadgb0yp9koWtlPj8b7fnT5JMc640pBonMh0o2Ff9rPpGx_WRuYSgupE5GbmvmiySfMmn.M8CUWYeQ1dI9g7t8xe4qYe5ZrfqUaVrS.MS_dVfZbe2R9jfx2MhQ- Received: from [24.207.224.145] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:53:35 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1155.32 YahooMailWebService/0.7.218.2 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:53:35 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: About the negators To: lojban-list@lojban.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Message-ID: <101615.13333.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15109 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list The claim to be spoken predicate logic has always been a bit of a Loglan/Lojban joke, second only perhaps to the claim to be a tool for testing the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.The lack of clear usable scope rules -- right hand end problems -- is only one of many deviations, trivial and major. Most of the deviances are said to arise from the demands of actual languages in use. This is a questionable claim, but, if true, could bre accomodated in many other ways than the current versions (some maybe even simpler or more usable), Since scope is not -- in Lojban -- a syntactic category, the problems here do not affect the claim or unambiguousness, but do create other sorts of ambiguity. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llambías To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 7:21:17 AM Subject: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: About the negators On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > I suggest this conversation has now grown well beyond the limits of > lojban-beginners list. (I am responding in lojban-list.) > Suffice it to say that while the use of na is > well-defined in simple bridi, its meaning in very complicated sentence with > both existential qualifiers and bridi tails is not well-defined. If {su'o da na broda gi'e brode} counts as a "very complicated sentence", then the characterization of Lojban as "spoken predicate logic" is almost a sham. The relative scopes of quantifiers, logical connectives and negation should be very straightforward. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.