From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Dec 22 06:44:18 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LEm14-0006VF-6N for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:44:18 -0800 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LEm10-0006U7-Tj for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 06:44:17 -0800 Received: from chausie ([71.75.215.96]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20081222144408.TPWU24847.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@chausie> for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:44:08 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7DB13326 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:44:06 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: About the negators Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:44:02 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 References: <101615.13333.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200812210615.23683.phma@phma.optus.nu> <925d17560812211053s706275cak4ab4020e3d7b5185@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d17560812211053s706275cak4ab4020e3d7b5185@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200812220944.03051.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15130 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Sunday 21 December 2008 13:53:53 Jorge Llambías wrote: > On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:15 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > su'oda nage broda gi brode > > doesn't change, because {na} is part of the conjunction {nage}. > > {na} is not really part of the conjunction. Do you mean it is > equivalent to: {su'o da na ku zo'u ge da broda gi da brode} or to {na > ku su'o da zo'u ge da broda gi da brode}? {naku su'oda zo'u ge da broda gi da brode}. I was thinking of {ganai}; in {naje}, {na} is part of the conjunction, whereas in {nage}, it isn't. > A full specification of the rules would go something like this: > > We define an "atomic bridi" as a bridi that contains no bridi > negations, no (outer) quantifiers, and no (logical) connectives. It > corresponds to an atomic formula of pedicate logic. (In an atomic > bridi, the order of arguments can be changed freely with SE and/or FA, > without changing meaning). It can contain bridi negations inside a sumti; these aren't affected by the transform, unless you apply it to the bridi inside the sumti. e.g. {lo na gerku cu batci mi}. > We define a "well formed bridi" (wfb), corresponding to well formed > formulas of predicate logic, as follows: > > An atomic bridi is a wfb. > A wfb preceded by {na ku zo'u} is a wfb. > A wfb preceded by {ro da zo'u} is a wfb. (And the same for the other > quantifiers.) > Two wfb connected with {ge .. gi ...} give a wfb. (And the same for > the other logical connectives.) > Nothing else is a wfb. > > That is all that is required to express the wff's of first-order > predicate logic, and the logical structure of a wfb is always clear. > But Lojban provides some additional "shortcut" notations (negations > and quantifiers moved out of the prenex and into the matrix of the > bridi, and sumti and bridi-tail connectives) that are always > equivalent to some wfb. The rules to transform a general bridi into > wfb form are as follows: > > Step 1: write all afterthought connectives in forethought form. > Step 2: going from left to right: > (a) when a naku is found in the matrix, move to last place in the > prenex of current bridi. > (b) when a quantifier is found in the matrix, move to last place in > the prenex of current bridi, leaving a copy of the variable in place > in the matrix. > (c) when a connective is found, expand to a full bridi connective, > leaving a copies of the shared terms in each connected bridi (this may > require introducing some goi ko'a or similar when the shared term is > not already a variable.) > (d1) when a na is found, move (as naku) to last place in the prenex of > current bridi. > (d2) when a na is found, move (as naku) to first place in the prenex > of current bridi. > > Rule (d1) is what I propose, rule (d2) is what you propose. In {su'oda na broda gi'e brode}, you have to convert {gi'e} to forethought before moving {na}, else it won't find a {ge} to stop it. This transform also applies to non-logical connectives, although the result won't be a logical wfb. E.g.: ti na gucti li re joi pulgada li so -> ti joigi na gucti li re gi pulgada li so -> ti joigi naku gucti li re gi pulgada li so mu'omi'e pier. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.