From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Dec 25 17:21:41 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LG1OU-0007I2-G7 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:21:41 -0800 Received: from mx.freeshell.org ([192.94.73.19] helo=sdf.lonestar.org ident=root) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LG1OK-0007FT-DJ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:21:38 -0800 Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@sverige.freeshell.org [192.94.73.4]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.2/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mBQ1L9uh020283 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 2008 01:21:09 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.2/8.12.8/Submit) id mBQ1L9oT008547 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 26 Dec 2008 01:21:09 GMT Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 01:21:09 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: gleki xisri'i Message-ID: <20081226012107.GB7051@sdf.lonestar.org> References: <20081225043944.GA29775@sdf.lonestar.org> <20081225094052.GH10930@digitalkingdom.org> <20081225194149.GA28595@sdf.lonestar.org> <3ccac5f10812251622v5e4d1389mfc03381c6d041f5f@mail.gmail.com> <3ccac5f10812251650l45c44633ufbdbd196ec2a8771@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3ccac5f10812251650l45c44633ufbdbd196ec2a8771@mail.gmail.com> Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15153 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list de'i li 26 pi'e 12 pi'e 2008 la'o fy. Cyril Slobin .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > To Robin: after a cup of tea, the problem seems to me worse then > before. I don't remember the exact CLL wording, but it is some > informal English prose like "terminators may be omitted unless this > leads to ambiguity", right? As a formalization of this informal > English prose, we have the official yacc-based parser with it's shift > over reduce preference, right? But this formalization fails in the > example above! Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there is one > and only one way to restore the omitted terminators there: > > nu le broda KU broda KEI > > Therefore, by definition, there is no ambiguity, and the phrase is > correct. But the official parser rejects it! So, I think, we should > either (1) decide that parser is always right, and clarify English > wording, or (2) make a better parser. Or am I missed something? .skamyxatra I interpret that rule as meaning to say "unless a change in meaning results" and treat the grammar as always shifting. Forcing "{nu le broda broda}" to contain an implicit "{ku}" in the middle leads to too many problems. Among other things, if you want to answer a "{ma}" question with a {sumti} that contains a {tanru}, you have to add a seemingly superfluous "{ku}" onto the end in order to keep the {tanru} from being broken into a {sumti} descriptor and a {selbri}. Moreover, where would the "{ku}" be placed in "{nu le broda brode brodi}"? Designing the parser such that it rewrites constructs that don't work would ... well, it probably wouldn't be LALR(1) unless you took the brute-force, grillion-productions approach, and it would definitely lend weight to the idea of an impossible Lojban CFG. If this unintuitive "implicit terminator insertion in the middle of constructs" approach is how Lojban is meant to work, I would really, really like to hear the rationale for it, among other things. mu'omi'e la'o gy. Minimiscience .gy. -- do ganai ka'e tcidu dei gi djuno lo dukse To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.