From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Dec 25 18:56:21 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LG2s9-0004Fs-1n for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:56:21 -0800 Received: from mail-ew0-f21.google.com ([209.85.219.21]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LG2s4-0004Ea-BC for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:56:20 -0800 Received: by ewy14 with SMTP id 14so4082046ewy.10 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:56:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=dnd7O6SakwxBpCUOolxAIvg0z/5CLG7rFiZ+WkL7W5E=; b=uGnOv2fbgCyePWf7UvWUZQumGW2dFQM14wMi5gEeFgxNPR1bTyk08Mp7QlvdUAqcUv AZu1+F9nZxefdCWObRwQQJDRHKs5J25+z36EJEMgbHtOZ3s1cGdCZ+bMpsys4MaHQgyq gyUNN95MqPcnk3IeYFZ081BKT5N7alNN+1nLE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=LMCJwQv0Q/w59HMZbEF+uwBGbu6LDOJlt8oTJ6fAr8P4sUp62fpl7uIKtnl77qQmFE hacpcyULAD2YLm28xYUZKsxww/GfbgIaexpmuFJFjStNS9OdZLFneNQVeT1/deXAFK9W rVBIe/633WIqr0ek68afw92/r6Spzbq+GyVkI= Received: by 10.210.126.18 with SMTP id y18mr4692403ebc.72.1230260169129; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.210.129.1 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Dec 2008 18:56:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3ccac5f10812251856pf15a220jccffd56f0fb1a5a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 05:56:09 +0300 From: "Cyril Slobin" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: gleki xisri'i In-Reply-To: <20081226012107.GB7051@sdf.lonestar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <20081225043944.GA29775@sdf.lonestar.org> <20081225094052.GH10930@digitalkingdom.org> <20081225194149.GA28595@sdf.lonestar.org> <3ccac5f10812251622v5e4d1389mfc03381c6d041f5f@mail.gmail.com> <3ccac5f10812251650l45c44633ufbdbd196ec2a8771@mail.gmail.com> <20081226012107.GB7051@sdf.lonestar.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b38a02166e2aa0bb X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 15154 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: cyril@slobin.pp.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:21 AM, Minimiscience wrote: > I interpret that rule as meaning to say "unless a change in meaning results" You cannot say "change in meaning" before you define the meaning of terminator-less phrase. If you say "this phrase is meaningless, because insertion of terminator change is from meaningless to meaningful", your definition is circular. On the contrary, you example {nu le broda brode brodi} IS ambiguous, because terminators can be inserted in at least two ways. I do NOT suggest to change the language, the current practice is good enough. But I suggest to find a better way to explain it in a plain English. "Always shifting" is NOT a plain English: LALR(1) is just one of many parsing methods, and the language definition should not be formulated in it's terms. Consider another, the most famous shift-reduce conflict: the "dangling else" case. Neither Wirth nor Kernighan and Ritchie said "always reduce", they said "else is associated with closest previous else-less if". What I suggest is to find and explicitly write the similar rule for Lojban. Or to create a really unambiguous grammar, making such an additional rules unnecessary. BTW, for dangling else it is technically almost trivial, but the resulting grammar seems unnatural for human readers. -- http://slobin.pp.ru/ `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, `it means just what I choose it to mean' To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.