From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Apr 20 13:43:12 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lw0Kd-000204-Tw for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:43:12 -0700 Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.156]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lw0Ka-0001zb-4h for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:43:11 -0700 Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so1627362ywm.46 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:43:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=6PStPC+UGN9N27HpCeWIueHxHjua0NSOismaSVJ5Wvc=; b=CTzcjpjgdYIxk6sQWapYv4NkHP75jvqC5VfAvDGEkE094fS5F3gdwuyUwNUkKlKc/B 6ajd6ENiCeb9urrfcb7wH3R9Dv51q5GKumV3w1vCZR2QcnTOtptW8J7vNqb2Kwqg99dp 3m8jWHGKTnWYCfdkwfHgn8YdUUstPHdybmXs8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=im9Z3nNBTeg8ulXIwkp61KRcdHRjg+D62beNbVEoVWytKa7ncbNHJDs+ltAnObSoH5 oSRLe0pChtaavvOEukt6mXPbrPkoeG+vIxmbEasq14Yre4fl6WpGLmY9RROW+vOiAl1n Irp6iT15oUnLnj9cVpSJSUtBG2kQ/DIiiXk/o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.126.15 with SMTP id y15mr8386407anc.71.1240260186368; Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:43:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090420203844.GG593@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20090420140025.GA7343@sdf.lonestar.org> <20090420201926.GF593@digitalkingdom.org> <20090420203844.GG593@digitalkingdom.org> From: Danny Piccirillo Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 16:42:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Gender neutrality? To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64615b0d67fbf04680293f9 X-archive-position: 15484 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: danny.piccirillo@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016e64615b0d67fbf04680293f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <>Ah, didn't realize that. Nevermind then! On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 16:38, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > Umm. I don't think I even know what it means. If I say "Did you > see that woman?", I mean "Did you see that human with female > secondary sexual characteristics?"; I'm probably only bothering to > say "woman" because I found them attractive. I have no idea what > "replacing words meaning biological sex with words for gender > identities" would entail in that conversation, let alone why I would > want to do that. > > FWIW, as others have said nanmu/ninmu can mean looks like an X, > thinks like an X, acts like an X, considers themselves an X, is > considered by others an X, etc, etc; it's up to context to make the > distinction. > > I'm not at all clear on which case you think should be deprecated. > > -Robin > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 04:34:40PM -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote: > > Yes, but in conversation people often like to say, "Did you see > > that girl?" instead of "Did you see that person?". Things like > > that. My request is that lujvo for gender identities should > > replace words meaning biological sex in casual conversation since > > it will come up. Can that happen? Does anybody else see this as > > something that should happen? > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 16:19, Robin Lee Powell < > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org > > > wrote: > > > > > It hasn't come up. Unless I need to talk about whether someone > > > actually has a penis or vagina, I use {remna}. Or, you know, their > > > name. :) If it comes up in conversation for you, I suggest you > > > invent some lujvo. > > > > > > -Robin > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 04:12:16PM -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote: > > > > No, i mean words that instead of meaning that someone is a boy, it > > > > means that they are mentally a boy. Everyone is used to using > > > > words that describe what people are biologically, but we should be > > > > talking about gender identity unless we really do want to talk > > > > specifically about their biological sex. So, the terms that mean > > > > identify as male, female, genderqueer, etc, should always be > > > > preferred when talking about humans (or even bots/androids that > > > > are supposed to have a gender since they don't have a biological > > > > sex). > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:00, Minimiscience < > minimiscience@gmail.com > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > de'i li 20 pi'e 04 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Danny Piccirillo .fy. cusku > zoi > > > > > skamyxatra. > > > > > > If there are terms for boy, man, girl, and woman, there are > surely > > > terms > > > > > for > > > > > > one who identifies as masculine or feminine, or androgynous, > > > genderqueer, > > > > > etc > > > > > > and those are the terms i think should be preferred in common > > > > > conversation > > > > > > when talking about someone who has a gender identity (all > humans). > > > > > .skamyxatra > > > > > > > > > > If you mean words that are suitable for individuals regardless of > their > > > > > gender > > > > > identities, yes, there are words for those. "Human" is "{remna}," > and > > > > > "person" > > > > > (not necessarily human) is "{prenu}." "Child" is "{verba}," > > > "offspring" is > > > > > "{panzi}," "parent" is "{rirni}," "sibling" is "{tunba}," > "uncle/aunt" > > > is > > > > > "{famti}," et cetera. > > > > > > > > > > mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > le munje vi smaji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > > > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > > > > > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, > or > > > if > > > > > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." > > > And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something > > > other than the default outcome?" -- http://shorl.com/tydruhedufogre > > > http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > > > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or > if > > > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > > > > > > -- > They say: "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." > And I'm thinking: "Does it even occur to you to try for something > other than the default outcome?" -- http://shorl.com/tydruhedufogre > http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --0016e64615b0d67fbf04680293f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <<In=A0fact, the {gismu} for "male" & "female"= ; ("{nakni}" & "{fetsi}") do not mandate=A0that one= be biologically/genetically/anatomically male/female>>
Ah, didn&= #39;t realize that. Nevermind then!=A0

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 16:38, Robin Le= e Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
Umm. =A0I don't think I even know what it means. =A0If I say "Did = you
see that woman?", I mean "Did you see that human with female
secondary sexual characteristics?"; I'm probably only bothering to=
say "woman" because I found them attractive. =A0I have no idea wh= at
"replacing words meaning biological sex with words for gender
identities" would entail in that conversation, let alone why I would want to do that.

FWIW, as others have said nanmu/ninmu can mean looks like an X,
thinks like an X, acts like an X, considers themselves an X, is
considered by others an X, etc, etc; it's up to context to make the
distinction.

I'm not at all clear on which case you think should be deprecated.

-Robin

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 04:34:40PM -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote:
> Yes, but in conversation people often like to say, "Did you see > that girl?" instead of "Did you see that person?". Thin= gs like
> that. My request is that lujvo for gender identities should
> replace words meaning biological sex in casual conversation since
> it will come up. Can that happen? Does anybody else see this as
> something that should happen?
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 16:19, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org
> > wrote:
>
> > It hasn't come up. =A0Unless I need to talk about whether som= eone
> > actually has a penis or vagina, I use {remna}. =A0Or, you know, t= heir
> > name. =A0:) =A0If it comes up in conversation for you, I suggest = you
> > invent some lujvo.
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 04:12:16PM -0400, Danny Piccirillo wrote:=
> > > No, i mean words that instead of meaning that someone is a b= oy, it
> > > means that they are mentally a boy. Everyone is used to usin= g
> > > words that describe what people are biologically, but we sho= uld be
> > > talking about gender identity unless we really do want to ta= lk
> > > specifically about their biological sex. So, the terms that = mean
> > > identify as male, female, genderqueer, etc, should always be=
> > > preferred when talking about humans (or even bots/androids t= hat
> > > are supposed to have a gender since they don't have a bi= ological
> > > sex).
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:00, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > de'i li 20 pi'e 04 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. D= anny Piccirillo .fy. cusku zoi
> > > > skamyxatra.
> > > > > If there are terms for boy, man, girl, and woman, = there are surely
> > terms
> > > > for
> > > > > one who identifies as masculine or feminine, or an= drogynous,
> > genderqueer,
> > > > etc
> > > > > and those are the terms i think should be preferre= d in common
> > > > conversation
> > > > > when talking about someone who has a gender identi= ty (all humans).
> > > > .skamyxatra
> > > >
> > > > If you mean words that are suitable for individuals reg= ardless of their
> > > > gender
> > > > identities, yes, there are words for those. =A0"Hu= man" is "{remna}," and
> > > > "person"
> > > > (not necessarily human) is "{prenu}." =A0&quo= t;Child" is "{verba},"
> > "offspring" is
> > > > "{panzi}," "parent" is "{rirni= }," "sibling" is "{tunba}," "uncle/aunt"=
> > is
> > > > "{famti}," et cetera.
> > > >
> > > > mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > le munje vi smaji
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to
> > lojban-list-req= uest@lojban.org
> > > > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, = or
> > if
> > > > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > --
> > They say: =A0"The first AIs will be built by the military as= weapons."
> > And I'm thinking: =A0"Does it even occur to you to try f= or something
> > other than the default outcome?" -- http://shorl.com/tydruhedufogre > > http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
> > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.
> >
> >

--
They say: =A0"The first AIs will be = built by the military as weapons."
And I'm thinking: =A0"Does it even occur to you to try for somethi= ng
other than the default outcome?" -- http://shorl.com/tydruhedufogre
http= ://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.


--0016e64615b0d67fbf04680293f9-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.