From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon May 18 13:52:35 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 18 May 2009 13:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M69p5-0002UD-IL for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:52:35 -0700 Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.154]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1M69p2-0002Tq-IM for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:52:35 -0700 Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 36so10842069yxh.46 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:52:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZMODGJp1YuQA4sXU8PUSgeTeeM0h/Mt1UtBBtz6XLbM=; b=xXqglldFp6VUCijbxWBpP2oxQh5luIO6cRbSp+3LCBo8bZrWx40Znt09aFVCnxrlVo egQBVaDXOZUuoXKbtRIl0EvjnOz1VG92ppVJuXtmGOOy+GbQk/iYatIt+wJJMUfH5iXc Wq48QDSPXegzsyvRisIVT6DUDJVODZXdTZMDM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oU1FeiDnRvbABiEEoXtec5TZI6AzgpVG8imbMOQiLyj4//ThEeG5xRh1KXEuvOBccG jAKLez9IlSZtSKyM8NOoCKuSfA7jPS8jQ/RV/MHcmHMca5euiOI7aaNgPFxoxgB9+CEO lZXcaBNoAc3haW6SbrKRVztrDL1dSVzvveCvE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.138.9 with SMTP id q9mr13346157ybn.40.1242679951377; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:52:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300905181338t6d21b092ye6cbcdef6e1a7fb1@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300905181311h3a3ac22vb84791f1c2c15306@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60905181329m664c7153w2e426d70a6044f8b@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300905181338t6d21b092ye6cbcdef6e1a7fb1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 16:52:31 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60905181352s662c0f31qee9209b40c8f1ee5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: patfu? From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 15591 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Sure. 'pap' and 'pat' are fine. They are names, therefore devoid of meaning (In a previous thread, I suggested "mamym" for "grandma".) --gy On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > given point 5 (and my wife explicitly saying that "patfu sounds kind of ugly > and formal" which I agree with) you do say that using "paf" is acceptable as > long as it's used as a name right?  Actually, could I make up any word as > long as it fits the requirements of a name? > > - Luke Bergen > > > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> > So I was thinking about this earlier.  When babies are first learning to >> > talk they don't say "father" as their first word.  It's usually some >> > kind of >> > "dada" sound.  Also, patfu sounds so formal.  For when babies are first >> > learning to talk how acceptable would things like referring to one's >> > paternal gardian as "pa'u" be? >> > >> > Would this be the kind of thing where getting excited over "pa'u" is >> > understandable but the next step would be to encourage them to say >> > "patfu"? >> > Also, "patfu" sounds kind of ugly, would it be common/understandable to >> > have >> > a child call their parent "la paf" or "la pa'us" as similar to what >> > "pop" is >> > in english? >> > >> >>  While my wife is much for the language acquisition specialist than >> me (she has a bachelor's in Speech Language Pathology, and a Master in >> Special Education), I can say from the perspective of a father of five >> kids: >> 1)  I don't think a kid is likely to say "pa'u". /h/ is a relatively >> late sound to develop.  'pa.u' is more likely.  But probably, 'patu' >> would be the closest a baby is gonna get to patfu.  (cf. French papa, >> Yiddish tatty,  Farsi bapu). >> 2) 'paf' would be fine for an older kid/grownup to refer to their >> father, exactly equivalent to "Dad" or "Pop", but a baby wouldn't be >> able to manage the final /f/ so well, either. >> 3) Any lojbanic father would be thrilled to hear their kid say 'patu' >> for the first time!! (Later, we can correct the kid that it really >> means 'one of those' ;-) ) >> 4) "pa'u" of course already has a meaning, "having part___", so I >> wouldn't encourage my kid to make that sound. >> 5) "patfu" being ugly is strictly a judgement call on your part, but >> it certainly would sound very formal as a term of address, equivalent >> to "Father". >> >>                --gejyspa >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org >> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if >> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. >> > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.