From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 01 08:22:24 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MB9LD-0007qf-O2 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:22:24 -0700 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MB9LA-0007p1-55 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:22:23 -0700 Received: (qmail 82411 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2009 15:22:13 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1243869733; bh=KmOotA90AUtb3Jf7VkJwORrq3ayfe2hBjjF03o5L6Hg=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WBFessKv3ez9LX+J+oDfEDEUuxzN7ckgzeWCuV4iUzKX1ELzIPHIaddtE6jiLBc7Fra+1fDkoZJPIDJw3vNpfSgdj0/0QRnl7Bt8U7e/EuQcMAjDEYGT5OucCeYYZomftr+tOg6SIPgQ/dicd96BhrC2yFLA9GeK4Kl//9udJ7Y= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=AiZsvdFYwx5Y6YjVTjYqVD8fiNA/VQ/eo/Gb/BqWkHWaG4C1ddVPx4/IkcUcnNqK8t6O5WRsCHiDk64EcSQujig7IFx8tKaR4N5HH5uOKV3eCCyyLudN7B1uov1elGfyaGR3ta+587wDZq4SmkFkusJaghXoMmkljhhXedKNDHs=; Message-ID: <489051.81750.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: X5ZxUy8VM1lec3SfU_w7chrRT2TP_.7lz8XxJIZ0hNzzhGJkjNGS7uak3_hwXbseQoLTPy5kvPmeiFH1wntCULhvtzcq79wRlXDM2UDZ5FCBbbLcdEFs9yCjfBj7WEC8LWAp7OCDlg3ldFI8NmIB42fgDblhXkmoMywG2ftM4efcvqdjwefI9yieaS74yrYFARx6pfO2xU1quDPjwlMcMHGrZcI5k3XJ47EP1k9.FtH3TjHZbRzpt.6AXK5EHJ2mpaRw01sh6MYkWPqd6tQVp6iy1pm7pKYOpmqK75vt6xlx39NnKipu90lgXldK_DBSQ0NBCIzt4m7cy0CNYBrGCL8- Received: from [24.207.224.145] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:22:13 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1277.43 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.10 References: <5715b9300906010628l341442ear1f5c7e4a3e5f1f8e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 08:22:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <5715b9300906010628l341442ear1f5c7e4a3e5f1f8e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1016990162-1243869733=:81750" X-archive-position: 15634 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-1016990162-1243869733=:81750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii OK, I'll put this in the file for LoCCan3. It will pretty much kill the 'easy to learn' 'feature' of the present system, but -- absent a test -- no one seems to have believed that anyhow. I think this is the first suggestion about phonolgy -- and immediately suggests the need to revise the lujvo rules; any suggestions? ________________________________ From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 8:28:14 AM Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel That would be quite an undertaking. with only CVC and CCV forms that would leave...... [17]*[5]*[17] = 1445 forms for CVC and (due to initial consonant pairs restriction) 48*5 = 240 for CCV form. Added together we have 1685.... that would be just about enough to cover the gismu that we have now with a little left over to spare. I doubt that it would happen in lojban, but an interesting thought experiment morpheme - Luke Bergen On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:31 AM, wrote: In a message dated 5/31/2009 23:57:24 Eastern Daylight Time, adam.raizen@gmail.com writes: I'msure that coming up with a system that fulfilled the same design goals as Lojban but didn't require learners to memorize 0-3 extra combining forms for every root word would not prove to be overly ambitious. One possibility would be to create the rafsi first, perhaps using all the CVC and CCV forms, neither of which can be a cmavo, then adding more or less arbitrary -CV to each one to make a gismu. Thus the first three letters of each gismu would provide a unique rafsi. mu'o mi'e stevon --0-1016990162-1243869733=:81750 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
OK, I'll put this in the file for LoCCan3.  It will pretty much kill the 'easy to learn' 'feature' of the present system, but -- absent a test -- no one seems to have believed that anyhow.  I think this is the first suggestion about phonolgy -- and immediately suggests the need to revise the lujvo rules; any suggestions?

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 8:28:14 AM
Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel

That would be quite an undertaking.  with only CVC and CCV forms that would leave...... [17]*[5]*[17] = 1445 forms for CVC and (due to initial consonant pairs restriction) 48*5 = 240 for CCV form.  Added together we have 1685.... that would be just about enough to cover the gismu that we have now with a little left over to spare.

I doubt that it would happen in lojban, but an interesting thought experiment morpheme

- Luke Bergen


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:31 AM, <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:
In a message dated 5/31/2009 23:57:24 Eastern Daylight Time, adam.raizen@gmail.com writes:


I'm
 sure that coming up with a system that fulfilled the same design goals as Lojban but didn't require learners to memorize 0-3 extra combining forms for every root word would not prove to be overly ambitious.


One possibility would be to create the rafsi first, perhaps using all the CVC and CCV forms, neither of which can be a cmavo, then adding more or less arbitrary -CV to each one to make a gismu.  Thus the first three letters of each gismu would provide a unique rafsi.  

mu'o mi'e stevon


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