From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 04 08:29:08 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MCEsO-0007uV-9L for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:29:08 -0700 Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.92.146]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MCEsK-0007tz-4C for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:29:08 -0700 Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so532904qwc.58 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:29:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=d3kvS/QpQG0uQR8vwrrItbLWViYs0h2+l9HUGUzz7a4=; b=MlB9pAmxJd+X4HdOA7mwOxgLHCWHhhOow8TW9C0/rmED1n577cj4Qemgr6h8lem+xW AsHEv3CB2QJwDlDc9D8eD/kUtu0xlWr0p+goxwZBn8z/W4K09+iNlK7pG0gpEAegK17/ py1nWZ1sevIJdnvE+HXDcqBEeV/tmEZlC4rbU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tFnwHLPFDj83MymNFdRKQx5pTX4yJgSFfoWmjinwuaIz962kS2cv65MazSXTPaUAhF 9VdZJ4FXBWndURetwIXqtOZKXxkaxJMRKWx2NQ16tP8+aNsPagwF2NET123vX8dakiSH 6t2WdQ0NVf7HMtHJj7R6oYdIOwWD1HLdt5gFI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.228.8 with SMTP id a8mr3773284ybh.325.1244129342766; Thu, 04 Jun 2009 08:29:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <489051.81750.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5715b9300906010628l341442ear1f5c7e4a3e5f1f8e@mail.gmail.com> <489051.81750.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:29:02 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60906040829s44f298aev4d2b31593a7ec005@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: sel ter vel xel From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 15645 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 11:22 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > OK, I'll put this in the file for LoCCan3.  It will pretty much kill the > 'easy to learn' 'feature' of the present system, but -- absent a test -- no > one seems to have believed that anyhow.  I think this is the first > suggestion about phonolgy -- and immediately suggests the need to revise the > lujvo rules; any suggestions? > I'm sure I haven't a clue what "LoCCan3" is, and I have REALLY no desire to throw away all the aging brain cells I've already invested in learning lojban, but one of the phonological problems I've always had learning lojban is the of all the theoretical vastness of the gismu space, there is severe "clumping" in some areas, and other areas are completely unused. For example, there is ganra/grana/garna/gerna, xrani/xanri, cernba/cinba, tsina/tsani/tinsa, tinsa/rinsa/risna, racli/ralci, etc. etc. but not a single gismu with a pattern of *f*j* *p*v* *v*v* *x*v* *z*x* or *z*z*, nor any gismu using any of more than 470 theoretically possible consonantal triples (in ANY order) such as {d,f,z} {d,s,z} {d,p,t}, {l,l,m}, {s,t,v} I know that this is driven by the gismu derivation paradigm, but I think any "reimagining" of lojban should give reasonable weight to making the phonologic separation between any two gismu as far apart as possible. This will help in keeping the two words separate in one's mind. (The other problem I've had, in learning the deep gismu list, is the inconsistency. For example while some things have source/location, some have composition (and I can see that, and don't necessarily have a problem with that), and some have both source and composition, those latter all have source first, then composition, EXCEPT rokci. While most things that have a to and from argument have it in the order "to" and "from", there are a few exceptions (ex. rinci and sputu). While most body parts that have three places have the body in x3, some don't, such as nazbi (possibly forgiveable, as the subpart is there), kerfa, rango (but compare cigla). Some measurements have subunits before the "by standard" piece, some after, etc. I know this has all been discussed elsewhere.) --gejyspa To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.