From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jul 20 05:47:08 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 20 Jul 2009 05:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MSsGp-00058a-Id for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 05:47:08 -0700 Received: from web50408.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.38.73]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MSsGk-00057q-U4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 05:47:07 -0700 Received: (qmail 44103 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Jul 2009 12:46:56 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1248094016; bh=s/2d9FCUEJWg3x5ygazY4WE+Ps122uFBnydTnXFlRE0=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=RhbvcGra8lOObJOlxl1LlUvlUNTezN5Sy9PQgoEAQgcbtyrYcvutZzHoltWIY3YIXOYTBrsEG/MQ/w6CWh5dPN2xaqq11QrqwO/9nbC/Kt8Kw/hmSPvsRD9QCM/Ste/RLDCCWSZfK/t2LYacd022Zi6ChfLmlXyY+21TC9giNFE= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=gfWVQryHHh6IMveOwXJqA9yncOFgAznlSeuyb0Jq0dOWYVkn997a6vz4JHIMqDbvOBSEP0LBP8Dx4AEa9M3k6e3NY/1q8VWczen6I3PXVy3eLVBc59pnUgKXF8cRs0rhAlc+4ZHGCOhhrSEzGZIcbofVXGoU0NtZuhlpFiGigaY=; Message-ID: <126025.43169.qm@web50408.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: wEw7jD8VM1lEjs_ueDB9_VB0t6v5zyAjcbmGCaEbwaL5uYRM_A7U2XShEow6H.hVEaoNdXWrtSgSFe.oWpbwe57vLuHgSipKoPWGaC3Kpyyj4ZmBkDRKOasrt5uHOmx12X74pg2_eJ0elOjYR0LNwBylzmFvUBwLOkxWu98___Zi6UAucH6ZUf2y_JCYwT8AAplk7JLO7Tr2BrfSRSNmhmOJqs35W4KElT8FZvyjkX3QuG.2JraOoqeGj4lkCD0fsnGJTQxQNHg9yECvz8Tyq4_x21Ry3XP2qdjSmvoL9NJMNJFL7n2n3Wom5o7EFlmVwjxh.Q-- Received: from [71.202.193.61] by web50408.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 20 Jul 2009 05:46:55 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1358.22 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.15 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 05:46:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Lindar Greenwood Subject: [lojban] Philosophical differences. To: lojban-list@lojban.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-671612573-1248094015=:43169" X-archive-position: 15772 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-671612573-1248094015=:43169 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have spoken at great length with various people that frequent the Lojban IRC channel, and it has been recommended that I draft out issues that I have with various things in Lojban (which have been so adequately described by broca as "not obvious mistakes, but rather philosophical differences"). Before anybody jumps down my throat, the whole "baseline" speech, and every other counter-argument to date, has been made about why absolutely nothing must be changed and the gismu list is handed down from the very gods themselves. I understand that gismu space is not meant to cover absolutely every concept known to man. That being said, I would like to express my issues with a few words, and I welcome responses which include either supporting statements or reasons (other than the ones previously mentioned) why I may just be confused/misguided/wrong/misunderstanding things/etc. 1. vlagi It does not make sense to have a word which specifically refers to the external female genitalia when we have "plibu". fetplibu and nakplibu are perfectly adequate, in my opinion, for referring to the respective genitalia of either sex. We have plibu, ganti, and pinji, which are all non-gender-specific until we make a lujvo/tanru out of them, so we ought to be consistent. 2. xagji I've had this discussion at great length with people in the chat, over and over again, until everybody pretty much wanted me to go die in a fire. There is absolutely no way to describe "sleepy", and while my personal usage of the word may differ from others, it doesn't change the lack of such a concept in Lojban. tatpi means tired, as in physically fatigued, and one must rest a moment before continuing any activities. xagji means one is hungry, and must eat before continuing any activities. taske means one is thirsty, and must drink before continuing activities. None of these imply need, as there are plenty of people that get hungry without needing to eat, there are plenty of people that get thirsty without needing to drink, etc. This also does not imply desire as there are plenty of people that desire to eat regardless of hunger. Keeping this in mind, how do we express that one is sleepy? One does not necessarily need sleep, as outlined in previous examples related to food/drink/rest/etc., and one does not necessarily desire sleep, as also outlined in previous examples. Therefore, we have several concepts that have a unique value in common, which I could inadequately describe as an intrinsic physical need, separate from the desires of the mind, and separate from what constitutes actual need. I would like either of the following to happen: two new gismu be created to encompass 'sleep-hunger' (sleepiness) and 'sex-hunger'(there is no non-slang word in English), which still leaves room for things like air-hunger (again, no English word), exercise-hunger, and possibly even something like entertainment-hunger (boredom, I suppose), OR that the meaning of xagji be changed to reflect this concept, which can then be used as lujvo/tanru to express a very large variety of concepts, such as boredom, hunger, sleepiness, or any number of things that do not necessarily imply need or desire, which would manifest as ctixagji (hunger), sipxagji (sleepiness), glexagji, seljbexagji (a biological desire to give birth, commonly refered to as the 'ticking biological clock' in colloquial English), pinxyxagji (thirsty), pincyvi'ixagji (which just sounds completely horrible in standard Lojban, but considering the proposed change would mean something more along the lines of the English phrase "I have to go pee."). None of these imply an active and concious desire, nor are they always a need (I find myself constantly being hungry and not wanting to eat, nor to I actively need to eat for at least 24 hours after any given meal). 3. Cultural gismu. Just fix it already. 4. Computer words. Face it, we're pretty much all huge nerds. We need words for "window", "website", "internet", "software", "hardware", and various other things. We have computer and monitor, but not much else, and if we are to put this language into full use as quickly as possible, I see this as a dire necessity over most anything else. ---- So those are my philosophical problems with modern Lojban. (Before you bite at problem number 2, plenty of people have already pointed out, as the devil's advocate, that I may be making a wholly unnecessary distinction that can be covered by need/desire, but this brings culture into play, and this concept may be wholly unique to my own personal culture. In my own concept of the universe, needing to eat, wanting to eat, and being hungry are different concepts.) Disclaimer: I make no assertion that I am, in any way, flawless in my logic or beliefs. I admit that I could be severely wrong or mistaken about things, that I may just not have an adequate enough grasp of the language to know that there are ways to express these things, or that I am just wholly retarded and simply a barking lunatic that is annoying a good lot of people that have better things to do than listen to me. I greatly appreciate your time, and look forward to your lovely and helpful responses. --0-671612573-1248094015=:43169 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I have spoken at great length with various people that frequent the Lojban IRC channel, and it has been recommended that I draft out issues that I have with various things in Lojban (which have been so adequately described by broca as "not obvious mistakes, but rather philosophical differences").

Before anybody jumps down my throat, the whole "baseline" speech, and every other counter-argument to date, has been made about why absolutely nothing must be changed and the gismu list is handed down from the very gods themselves. I understand that gismu space is not meant to cover absolutely every concept known to man. That being said, I would like to express my issues with a few words, and I welcome responses which include either supporting statements or reasons (other than the ones previously mentioned) why I may just be confused/misguided/wrong/misunderstanding things/etc.


1. vlagi

It does not make sense to have a word which specifically refers to the external female genitalia when we have "plibu". fetplibu and nakplibu are perfectly adequate, in my opinion, for referring to the respective genitalia of either sex. We have plibu, ganti, and pinji, which are all non-gender-specific until we make a lujvo/tanru out of them, so we ought to be consistent.


2. xagji

I've had this discussion at great length with people in the chat, over and over again, until everybody pretty much wanted me to go die in a fire. There is absolutely no way to describe "sleepy", and while my personal usage of the word may differ from others, it doesn't change the lack of such a concept in Lojban. tatpi means tired, as in physically fatigued, and one must rest a moment before continuing any activities. xagji means one is hungry, and must eat before continuing any activities. taske means one is thirsty, and must drink before continuing activities. None of these imply need, as there are plenty of people that get hungry without needing to eat, there are plenty of people that get thirsty without needing to drink, etc. This also does not imply desire as there are plenty of people that desire to eat regardless of hunger. Keeping this in mind, how do we express that one is sleepy? One does not necessarily need sleep, as outlined in previous examples related to food/drink/rest/etc., and one does not necessarily desire sleep, as also outlined in previous examples. Therefore, we have several concepts that have a unique value in common, which I could inadequately describe as an intrinsic physical need, separate from the desires of the mind, and separate from what constitutes actual need. I would like either of the following to happen: two new gismu be created to encompass 'sleep-hunger' (sleepiness) and 'sex-hunger'(there is no non-slang word in English), which still leaves room for things like air-hunger (again, no English word), exercise-hunger, and possibly even something like entertainment-hunger (boredom, I suppose), OR that the meaning of xagji be changed to reflect this concept, which can then be used as lujvo/tanru to express a very large variety of concepts, such as boredom, hunger, sleepiness, or any number of things that do not necessarily imply need or desire, which would manifest as ctixagji (hunger), sipxagji (sleepiness), glexagji, seljbexagji (a biological desire to give birth, commonly refered to as the 'ticking biological clock' in colloquial English), pinxyxagji (thirsty), pincyvi'ixagji (which just sounds completely horrible in standard Lojban, but considering the proposed change would mean something more along the lines of the English phrase "I have to go pee."). None of these imply an active and concious desire, nor are they always a need (I find myself constantly being hungry and not wanting to eat, nor to I actively need to eat for at least 24 hours after any given meal).


3. Cultural gismu.

Just fix it already.



4. Computer words.

Face it, we're pretty much all huge nerds. We need words for "window", "website", "internet", "software", "hardware", and various other things. We have computer and monitor, but not much else, and if we are to put this language into full use as quickly as possible, I see this as a dire necessity over most anything else.

----

So those are my philosophical problems with modern Lojban.
(Before you bite at problem number 2, plenty of people have already pointed out, as the devil's advocate, that I may be making a wholly unnecessary distinction that can be covered by need/desire, but this brings culture into play, and this concept may be wholly unique to my own personal culture. In my own concept of the universe, needing to eat, wanting to eat, and being hungry are different concepts.)

Disclaimer: I make no assertion that I am, in any way, flawless in my logic or beliefs. I admit that I could be severely wrong or mistaken about things, that I may just not have an adequate enough grasp of the language to know that there are ways to express these things, or that I am just wholly retarded and simply a barking lunatic that is annoying a good lot of people that have better things to do than listen to me.

I greatly appreciate your time, and look forward to your lovely and helpful responses.

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