From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 21 00:04:51 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MT9P8-0002Ba-Gm for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:04:50 -0700 Received: from ol.freeshell.org ([192.94.73.20] helo=sdf.lonestar.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MT9P5-0002BL-J4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:04:50 -0700 Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@iceland.freeshell.org [192.94.73.5]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6L74gVl022750 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:04:42 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.12.8/Submit) id n6L74dFJ021669 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:04:39 GMT Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:04:39 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Philosophical differences. Message-ID: <20090721070434.GA11801@sdf.lonestar.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <6538.60092.qm@web50410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6538.60092.qm@web50410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.19 (2009-01-05) X-archive-position: 15785 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list de'i li 20 pi'e 07 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Lindar Greenwood .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > Also, on the question of "if you don't need to sleep and you don't want to > sleep, then how are you sleepy?", it seems like such an elementary concept, > but I guess it doesn't cross all cultures. Need is an entirely subjective > matter, warranted by circumstance. One does not -need- to eat lunch, but it > is beneficial, and usually desired. .skamyxatra The thing about subjectivity is that, once you accept some arbitrary standard or frame of reference (emphasis on "arbitrary"), it becomes objective. You do not *need* to eat lunch for the sake of lunch, but you may need to each lunch in order to fulfill some purpose, such as controlling your blood sugar or not offending your host; within the context of this purpose, lunch can be said to be necessary. You could say that since you can always devise some reason to eat lunch, no matter how unjustified that reason may be (By fattening yourself up, you ensure that you will be among the first to be eaten when the aliens come and so will not live to witness the horrors that follow), you *always* have to eat lunch; however, in practical usage, "need" always carries some implied purpose which is reasonable (and usually deducible) given the current context, and this purpose will most likely allow you to not need lunch every so often. Getting back to the original question, "sleepy" usually refers to either a desire or a need for sleep, where the need is a physiological need that will hinder activity in some way if not satisfied, and if you do not need sleep under this frame of reference, and you do not desire sleep, how can you be considered sleepy? To summarize: Think about the x3 of "{nitcu}" for a while. mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. -- re po'o da xanka jai se djica fa loi nanba .e loi carce terjvi sei sa'a la .iuvenalis. cusku To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.