From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jul 29 07:30:26 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MWAAj-00085y-NJ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:30:26 -0700 Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.124]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MWAAf-00084j-3c for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:30:25 -0700 Received: (qmail 18049 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jul 2009 14:03:33 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1248876213; bh=/J8HnQHU/FHU3acAeG6nvyo68xTrxf6OnLPwXmOXCEg=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=DczAIeqToAsRiRlP9xi0HVhp/M8vWDuFeC9zLJuGUnPv4uUokKefG9SLgB6Ln9fJsnNE/CU107j7IaOfd1vtSvDyOvtdblyKwhFwB2yEh7rsxXj8JXmeiJj5TA8cYYcrmU1YZN8D1JATTLBkcqK3vXwylKebuMYPBBgOKVP3X5s= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=lhbKStfnV1tjhNMr+owsGQSuT88M2D9CuAhl49g17pde2xl39imwXH14hhdSor/Thky0vQ6DSofzNZfeFvxGHr5KrNpcva75DwwcOCQa2pfGjyRyXn0h8Izz57DFjA/RefUEVCGIvGITt9y4EJU07Zfa2UwlmaYEsAn4HSxgCxw=; Message-ID: <799022.17010.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: aR.YtEIVM1kp6vGHMRxJoSIUJy1EQdc3JPHZ.MPDLOXTp_W5ujx8Q.YUIKZDCma_olVCNoZVvxxIAwOhi4YyZiRqBYm9CksCSPbvnZzVK.9QTmdrkqUtMZiCThMSCcOpg50D5qllQFR4lfMtWzAhtH8YBqIPIuUX3vtNzhi94j77e_tjgOKiwhjJV53UFHUCqGucFdGjMqM6t.F74WXv_NrGRRujUT7BuZ26ads23DybKD3riuVOiyBlP6GImUpbp5Oq.1t_qfu1jzcQQBbV.y0xa0bcTA5zD.Wi3ZbXmjZ0JoRwxOy27CmL60SHYLEm_3rpHLXLaZSJ6DzF3MvjdD.cKxVdSMNDfPovkV_ttNtcxVxIHA-- Received: from [24.207.224.145] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:03:33 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1357.22 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.10 References: <200907280045.44937.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60907280533n45388b3dg4d9e7596e5c1e541@mail.gmail.com> <200907280859.09514.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60907280709h7960f3fftc2c9a5a083360ed2@mail.gmail.com> <664922.39992.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5715b9300907280903t63cd372du13da398fe2e4b7ac@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560907281046h181eba2bmbad07d736c9460e5@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300907281107v3c30f7cfs2664ef246a2edbb9@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560907281118kaf5901cne6dca20e8a0449e1@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300907281142u35568dccyaa7706062f7a7a8e@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560907281212t6390ff59k531d7536b3cfc67@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:03:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: elliptical sentences To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560907281212t6390ff59k531d7536b3cfc67@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 15844 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Whew! Things are about where I remembered them as being. The argument they embody has to do with the intersection of the 'exist' predicate, the range of quantifiers, and intensional contexts. xorxes has a simple solution which leads to greater complexity in the semantics of the language; I have a slightly more complex solution which makes the semantics like that of most natural languages. They agree however that what is referred to by 'lo broda' is a broda, whether it exists or not (well, actually, some things xorxes has said look like the expression always refers to brodahood or some such thing, but I take it that these remarks are not to be taken at face value). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llambías To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:12:31 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: elliptical sentences On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > ok, so what do you mean by "lo is veridical"? Basically, that "lo broda" can only refer to things that truly are broda. > I didn't know what the word > meant and went to http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3Averidical > which says stuff about "coinciding with reality" which as you said, "[lo] > says nothing about describing or existing". So what do you mean when you > say "lo is and always has been veridical"? A veridical description is a truthful description, yes. It doesn't mean that what you describe has to exist, only that it has to be what you are describing it as. If you say "lo pavyseljirna" then you are talking about unicorns, not about apples or about the sea. You are not claiming that unicorns exist, you are just saying something about unicorns. For example you may say that unicorns are mythical creatures: "lo pavyseljirna cu ranmi danlu". That's fine and does not claim that unicorns exist. It can't mean that warewolves are mythical creatures, because "lo" is veridical, so "lo pavyseljirna" refers to unicorns not to warewolves. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.