From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Aug 01 06:56:27 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 01 Aug 2009 06:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MXF4U-0002Ze-FZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 01 Aug 2009 06:56:26 -0700 Received: from dsl.zenzebra.mv.com ([207.22.49.29] helo=cmarib.ramside) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MXF4J-0002Yw-1f for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 01 Aug 2009 06:56:25 -0700 Received: from cmarib.ramside (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cmarib.ramside (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id n71DttZ5014871 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:55:55 GMT Received: (from rusat@localhost) by cmarib.ramside (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id n71DtrIi014868; Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:55:54 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: cmarib.ramside: rusat set sender to VirginSnow@vfemail.net using -f To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Ordering of time/space tenses? From: sunrise2000@comcast.net Date: 01 Aug 2009 13:55:50 +0000 Message-ID: <867hxnwsd5.fsf@cmarib.ramside> Lines: 66 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 15850 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: sunrise2000@comcast.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list coi rodo I have a question about the space/time tense system. When specifying both spatial and temporal tense in the same tense construct (with no intervening connectives), does it matter in what order the spatial tense and temporal tenses are specified? >From Chapter 10. Imaginary Journeys: The Lojban Space/Time Tense System, Section 4. Temporal tenses: PU and ZI: : when both spatial and temporal tense cmavo are given in a single : tense construct, the temporal tense is expressed first. (If space : were expressed before time, then certain constructions would be : ambiguous.) However, the 3rd baseline EBNF grammar (bnf.300) allows space and time in either order: : simple-tense-modal<972> = [NAhE] [SE] BAI [NAI] [KI] | : [NAhE] (time [space] | space [time]) & CAhA [KI] | KI | CUhE And the 3rd baseline YACC grammar (grammar.300) agrees with the EBNF: : tense_C_979 : time_1030 : /* time-only */ : /* space defaults to time-space reference space */ : : | space_1040 : /* can include time if specified with VIhA */ : /* otherwise time defaults to the time-space reference time */ : : | time_1030 space_1040 : /* time and space - If space_1040 is marked with : VIhA for space-time the tense may be self-contradictory */ : /* interval prop before space_time is for time distribution */ : | space_1040 time_1030 : ; Is 3rd baseline January 10, 1997 still the most recent official version of the formal grammars? Have I found a mistake in the Lojban Reference Grammar? There doesn't seem to be any mention of this in the CLL errata at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=CLL%2C+aka+Reference+Grammar%2C+Errata Is this statement in the CLL a holdover from a previous version of the grammar? I was thinking that the CLL's remark might have been a reference to the fact that space interval properties look just like time interval properties. Specifically, a space interval property consist of {fe'e} followed by a time interval property. However, the grammar for space-int-props is: : space-int-props<1049> = (FEhE interval-property) ... and not : space-int-props<1049> = FEhE interval-property ... Each interval-property is immediately preceeded by {fe'e}. So, in fact, {fe'e ta'e ta'enai} would correctly parse as {fe'e ta'e} {ta'enai}. It looks, to me, like spatial and temporal tenses may appear in either order (space time, or time space) without ambiguity. Is the Reference Grammar in error, or am I missing something? mi'e brablonau To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.