From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Aug 24 13:35:25 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MfgGD-0001tF-Ix for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:35:25 -0700 Received: from mail-vw0-f179.google.com ([209.85.212.179]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MfgGA-0001t2-Q4 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:35:25 -0700 Received: by vws9 with SMTP id 9so2113037vws.25 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:35:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8RjhhF2Rjb/MIRU1o2NJdqwdWk9VIos52eV1p5cFWY8=; b=eN/3u2gz3NyLjg75p8cTjj6BAyZiykgpbZmecpONqDleQhPkjkPtrFpxSK1kZN6UM6 TWRPO276qBtBcAUV7eyAjXYMGri+Gye1JyJxuvAgXbCn3IqOFopoHTE72Ho88QpHF6tC DNj1K4rT54KA0/PbxUWcOlxS4SNiczJ7BRWKM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=spiK7yIxPvyFiE9z9I00m6y58l8g7f96Uvq4aW6B5cUHGm/+Wilx8lJ/m1k+Yde/Hb GHF4TthYVi2iprhsK9a1FfgZ87YDkpks2nVbxMN7Ioll+waMnnCjmMSg+PKqfVLjyrHj +W4NJTz54Q84zE51kOTOtVNrqlvk4BqyojhEo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.20.9 with SMTP id d9mr6572195vcb.64.1251146116315; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 13:35:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60908240818k3be86a65x15ce619f30df0e0d@mail.gmail.com> References: <95b2fb130908211607j2988a3f3u5d58550dd8d5fa30@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60908240818k3be86a65x15ce619f30df0e0d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 16:35:16 -0400 Message-ID: <95b2fb130908241335x50f59288wb3484e61af2398a9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Modal se si'u From: "H. Felton" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 16003 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fagricipni@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:18 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 7:07 PM, H. Felton wrote: >> In the draft Reference Grammar, the modal si'u is said to derived from >> sidju. sidju is defined in gismu.txt as meaning "x1 helps/assists/aids >> object/person x2 do/achieve/maintain event/activity x3", yet in the >> Reference Grammar (Chapter 9, Section 17) the table says that "se >> si'u" approximately means "assisting in"; it would seem to me that "te >> si'u" would be closer in meaning to that: "se si'u" would seem to be >> closer to "assisting person".  Am I missing some point, or is the >> Reference Grammar flawed on this point? >> >  You're not missing anything.  "se si'u" should be "assisting", not > "assisting in" > >                    --gejyspa I just realized my English "translation" is ambiguous as well: I meant "assisting" as a verb with "person" (the following sumti fills that place) as object. I realize that my English "translation" could be interpreted as a participial adjective ("assisting") followed by its modified noun ("person") -- that is most decidedly _not_ the interpretation I had in mind. Although, I may be making a mistake in assuming that x2 has to have a motivation. The reason that this has come up at all is that I have used Python to process the gismu list with the intention of writing a program to help me learn the gismu. Since 63 out of the 65 modals are associated with gismu, I used the table in Reference Grammar to manually add the associated modal to the data already associated with a particular gismu; and that's when I noticed the issue I just brought up. Incidentally, the big areas that I will use the program to help me with are: learning the meanings of the gismu (both Lojban to English and English to Lojban), learning the rafsi associated with the gismu (gismu to rafsi) and in reverse the valsi associated with a particular rafsi (rafsi to valsi) [for being able to associate a rafsi back with the associated valsi, I will inculde the rafsi cmavo], and, of course, learning the modals associated with a gismu (both gismu to modal and modal to gismu). There are a few other sets of vocabulary that I might also write a program for learning: almost certainly, the 2 vowel attitudinals; but there may be others. When I have a working program, I would very much like to share it with the rest of the Lojban community; even if someone doesn't like the approach that I took to learning the gismu -- it is likely the best approach for me will not be ideal for most people, the source code will be available. Also the data files would easily be useful for other Lojban programs. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.