From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Aug 26 13:30:04 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgP88-0001f3-FX for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:30:04 -0700 Received: from mail-gx0-f219.google.com ([209.85.217.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgP84-0001ai-Ts for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:30:04 -0700 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so559265gxk.0 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:29:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=orZK9TmqAY7aDbPQXV+Yt7xQLm72gKrgHHGiMiP6anI=; b=klC9PwsNiMc1PJCUdlYS0HXRODsgZtuuIuV2jBpVm9k3Nfqyaaxz5BI/uksMfCCtJH ZsPnksKFxEFoZ+P8tja2nYrSleArBs4JnB3QZFp/sDK2oElGxGZAlI4ZGqFeRDuVMz8w ZTsUee8ve1GcHivPQbiZbnIew7r3IPR0sEIig= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=LXYeB4YCTNwNB1zPlMB8Hgd/Fsz/Ko7Gpj23NN7GKhB72DeQKv/KlRPtZdNPqCuue6 c1x43+98OpofDzD0uhtPaKJorExsbObMURe+H/r5ZczQ2nUzKTV9gCcadxGAN8wBf6zz qU11cj8QJsTItQz/g0bt4VUN60BW3r96Sjuxk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.122.11 with SMTP id z11mr6354333agm.111.1251318594671; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 13:29:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <33340.79.75.83.32.1251317418.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> References: <605395.64703.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3327.79.75.3.133.1251314231.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <33340.79.75.83.32.1251317418.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 23:29:54 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Compound vs Coordinate Bilinguals From: Adam Raizen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e646a3265615f6047211509f X-archive-position: 16052 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam.raizen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0016e646a3265615f6047211509f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 23:10, Colin Wright < colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> wrote: > >> Most would accept that words in one's native language often > >> carry additional "baggage" beyond the stated definitions. > > > > Well, I would accept that the dictionary definitions are > > completely inadequate to describe a word's usage. > > I didn't say dictionary, but you're right. Words are notoriously > difficult to explain/define/delimit. You can put a definition in something other than a "dictionary" but that doesn't change it's basic nature. > >> The thesis to which I referred found that there was no real > >> measurable shift in personality for compound bilinguals, but > >> a clear shift for coordinate bilinguals, which I think is > >> what I would have predicted if the SWH is true. > > > > Since it seems to me that coodinate bilinguals gain their > > ability through immersion, which also almost always includes > > cultural immersion, that comes as no surprise, and doesn't > > require SWH to explain it. > > Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you appear to be interpreting > as constant and unvarying fact something that is simply a correlation. > Some coordinates gain their ability through what Krashen calls > "learning", and some compounds gain their second language through > acquisition. Well, I disagree with that. As far as I can tell all coordinates get their ability through acquisition, sometimes in conjunction with varying degrees of learning. A coodinate bilingual who got their ability solely through learning is probably non-existent, certainly extremely rare. I'd have to reread Krashen but I believe the experimental evidence supports this. As far as compounds and acquisition, there is also a complicating factor of psychological motivation for learning the language, which seems to have a very significant effect on what kind of language input gets accepted by the student for the purpose of acquisition. > Further, I didn't say that these things require SWH to explain > them, I meant that I believe a form of SWH to be true (although > possibly not the form S or W would originally have expounded) > and that the findings I have to hand are what I would've predicted. > But if the evidence can be explained completely adequately without any recourse to SWH then by Occam's razor we would tend to discount SWH, until we get some other data that can't be explained in another way. -- Adam Raizen Timendi causa est nescire. --0016e646a3265615f6047211509f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 23:10, = Colin Wright <colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> wrote:
>> Most would accept that words in one's native language often
>> carry additional "baggage" beyond the = stated definitions.
>
> Well, I would accept that the dictionary definitions are
> completely inadequate to describe a word's usage.

I didn't say dictionary, but you're right. =C2=A0Words are no= toriously
difficult to explain/define/delimit.

You can put a def= inition in something other than a "dictionary" but that doesn'= ;t change it's basic nature.
=C2=A0
>> The thesis to which I referred found that there was no real
>> measurable shift in personality for compound bilinguals, but
>> a clear shift for coordinate bilinguals, which I think is
>> what I would have predicted if the SWH is true.
>
> Since it seems to me that coodinate bilinguals gain their
> ability through immersion, which also almost always includes
> cultural immersion, that comes as no surprise, and doesn't
> require SWH to explain it.

Forgive me if I misunderstand you, but you appear to be interpreting<= br> as constant and unvarying fact something that is simply a correlation.
Some coordinates gain their ability through what Krashen calls
"learning", and some compounds gain their second language through=
acquisition.

Well, I disagree with that. As far as I c= an tell all coordinates get their ability through acquisition, sometimes in= conjunction with varying degrees of learning. A coodinate bilingual who go= t their ability solely through learning is probably non-existent, certainly= extremely rare. I'd have to reread Krashen but I believe the experimen= tal evidence supports this. As far as compounds and acquisition, there is a= lso a complicating factor of psychological motivation for learning the lang= uage, which seems to have a very significant effect on what kind of languag= e input gets accepted by the student for the purpose of acquisition.
=C2=A0
Further, I didn't say that these things require SWH to explain
them, I meant that I believe a form of SWH to be true (although
possibly not the form S or W would originally have expounded)
and that the findings I have to hand are what I would've predicted.

But if the evidence can be explained completely adeq= uately without any recourse to SWH then by Occam's razor we would tend = to discount SWH, until we get some other data that can't be explained i= n another way.

--
Adam Raizen <adam.ra= izen@gmail.com>
Timendi causa est nescire.
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