From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Aug 26 14:33:38 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgQ7e-00080E-Am for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:33:38 -0700 Received: from mail-gx0-f219.google.com ([209.85.217.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgQ7b-0007zz-2y for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:33:38 -0700 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so610442gxk.0 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:33:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ZfnUqyg33nAGpZve7ps6h2h+zN4LUB7gz8jSI4fgen0=; b=qDFRHax/wpPuuXviBPB5o8T1QsniBqWQGFsqGvb69Jjcyg0/A2+olH8sFt83Lk4KyU IrtSaqpj8v94GJ9BErGYeLOULuzlgBlAs5l64dWemhriI9jQ3IEYH/pjj4ojnYk7JYtZ 9dLyDoJOSWs1QfHRYPToTKiyu3XfAeFmad8hs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=jcbMrOWH3aDwm1jIgmC1Vs+x0p8GdEVEcfVr2aVbR21oHr3IdIgfZhES2E8TRqzkxm lw0WUpImGnQOo8M1HEcrMi6h4XoYFuUEbWvZlczauBC0ZWVPNI0B6uUYzJ4Vyln5oUs6 9o6ljRo0V90QNlJ0VXhluyMRCXuq7pSsIPR6o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.198.4 with SMTP id v4mr6389784agf.79.1251322409163; Wed, 26 Aug 2009 14:33:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <33507.79.75.83.32.1251319904.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> References: <605395.64703.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3327.79.75.3.133.1251314231.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <33340.79.75.83.32.1251317418.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <33507.79.75.83.32.1251319904.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:33:29 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Compound vs Coordinate Bilinguals From: Adam Raizen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636283d9eb29e420472123324 X-archive-position: 16056 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam.raizen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --001636283d9eb29e420472123324 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 23:51, Colin Wright < colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> wrote: > I've lost your point. Yes, you can put a definition in something > other than a "dictionary". I simply pointed out that I didn't > mention dictionaries, you did. My point is that all definitions are essentially the same as dictionary definitions (which is why I added that word), and that the word's usage comes first and the definition afterwards, and even the most deftailed definition captures only a pale shadow of the word's usage. > Well, as I said, I'm not an expert. I am hardly an expert either. > The thesis I read seems to > suggest pretty clearly that there are coordinates who got their > ability through what Krashen calls learning. I won't argue with > evidence. I have none to present, and to some extent don't really > care. I'm merely passing on what I found. If you have evidence > that no coordinates ever gain their ability through what Krashen > calls learning, then I find that interesting. > I will have to look at it more closely. That is what I recall from the last time I read Krashen. Just because it isn't required by the current evidence does not > suggest it isn't true. I believe this to be a common misuse of > Occam's razor. That's a philosophical point, though, almost an > article of faith, rather than science. In some sense, you're right. But in the absence of evidence that needs a certain hypothesis to be explained, there is not much point in entertaining the hypothesis. > The formal evidence I've > seen is consistent with SWH, and my personal experience in these > things persuades me to believe a form of the SWH, and I haven't > seen any convincing evidence contradicting it, so I will continue > for now to make predictions with it. So far my predictions have > proven to be correct. I guess that this makes me realize that my basic problem with SWH is that it is essentially impossible to learn a language without also learning the culture that typically uses it (the well known problem of separating the two), and I also strongly suspect that if there do exist such things as SWH effects, it is impossible with our current state of linguistic and cognitive knowledge to deliberately engineer such effects. If there were to develop from the current nascent Lojban community a speech community whose primary spoken language is Lojban, any SWH effects that that community's language would exhibit would be nearly identical to the SWH effects displayed by English. I suspect that if SWH effects exist, they are related to the typical categories and metaphors, etc, that speakers use (a woefully inadequate half-sentence way of describing it), and not to much that you will find described in a complete grammar, but at that point it's not clear how much these effects are "language" and how much they are "culture". I believe, for example, that almost all "SWH" effects that might exist could be displayed just as well if the culture in question were to dictionaries, but would still use the new language in a subtly different way. -- Adam Raizen Timendi causa est nescire. --001636283d9eb29e420472123324 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 23:51, = Colin Wright <colin.wright@denbridgemarine.com> wrote:
I've lost your point. =C2=A0Yes, you can put a definition in something<= br> other than a "dictionary". =C2=A0I simply pointed out that I didn= 't
mention dictionaries, you did.

My point is that all de= finitions are essentially the same as dictionary definitions (which is why = I added that word), and that the word's usage comes first and the defin= ition afterwards, and even the most deftailed definition captures only a pa= le shadow of the word's usage.
=C2=A0
Well,= as I said, I'm not an expert.

I am hardly an expe= rt either.
=C2=A0
=C2= =A0The thesis I read seems to
suggest pretty clearly that there are coordinates who got their
ability through what Krashen calls learning. I won't argue with
evidence. I have none to present, and to some extent don't really
care. I'm merely passing on what I found. =C2=A0If you have evidence that no coordinates ever gain their ability through what Krashen
calls learning, then I find that interesting.

I will have to look at it mor= e closely. That is what I recall from the last time I read Krashen.

=
Just because it isn't required by the current evidence does not suggest it isn't true. =C2=A0I believe this to be a common misuse of Occam's razor. =C2=A0That's a philosophical point, though, almost a= n
article of faith, rather than science.

In some sense, = you're right. But in the absence of evidence that needs a certain hypot= hesis to be explained, there is not much point in entertaining the hypothes= is.
=C2=A0
The = formal evidence I've
seen is consistent with SWH, and my personal experience in these
things persuades me to believe a form of the SWH, and I haven't
seen any convincing evidence contradicting it, so I will continue
for now to make predictions with it. =C2=A0So far my predictions have
proven to be correct.

I guess that this makes me reali= ze that my basic problem with SWH is that it is essentially impossible to l= earn a language without also learning the culture that typically uses it (t= he well known problem of separating the two), and I also strongly suspect t= hat if there do exist such things as SWH effects, it is impossible with our= current state of linguistic and cognitive knowledge to deliberately engine= er such effects. If there were to develop from the current nascent Lojban c= ommunity a speech community whose primary spoken language is Lojban, any SW= H effects that that community's language would exhibit would be nearly = identical to the SWH effects displayed by English.

I suspect that if SWH effects exist, they are related to the typical ca= tegories and metaphors, etc, that speakers use (a woefully inadequate half-= sentence way of describing it), and not to much that you will find describe= d in a complete grammar, but at that point it's not clear how much thes= e effects are "language" and how much they are "culture"= ;. I believe, for example, that almost all "SWH" effects that mig= ht exist could be displayed just as well if the culture in question were to= dictionaries, but would still use the new language in a subtly different w= ay.

--
Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com>
Timendi causa est nescire.
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