From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Sep 06 14:01:39 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkOrh-000461-Ac for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:01:39 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f216.google.com ([209.85.219.216]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkOra-00045W-KF for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:01:37 -0700 Received: by ewy12 with SMTP id 12so2296768ewy.0 for ; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=7OIXhVu1TfzAvPURII+PXzq0notvxguDQesQlxQFEbs=; b=vTsR25ActkBRfxGsVD+nktmHLjFwWNUKlFHV2vwGCBKzZyc+k+YgVvT++IcQgAC3B3 2UWR8DTjTPyLK919FayNnefkpS35x6UZ7DsL0RVZ5pFbIHgiGvx/TxWQPI7vCI2UPi7I uDxJNXd6cI/vwJLdHps0ibP+JFfLtpicg/Q1M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=biW/6jz//b78vIsvdi3UXFOHFVO6sV/3F4XAyILRa9RXnkvtYg5elRED/ibRTpDnhi L08HgVftE+dTwv3N2Lfow9uK+S8iAtRB5HIZmFEF3CohonHDSSQao44CipwQqu0uAKUk LT/CA6hihLG2YGU+lY8DytxX3y+GD83nwfriw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.210.160.12 with SMTP id i12mr852450ebe.9.1252270884279; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17560909060746n223ad9c7ic88894c3513a6ea1@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909060746n223ad9c7ic88894c3513a6ea1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 00:01:24 +0300 Message-ID: <9ada8ecd0909061401n35c37197j6ff4fac5b267fc5e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo From: Squark Rabinovich To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485eb00c9385a590472ef0975 X-archive-position: 16088 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: top.squark@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --001485eb00c9385a590472ef0975 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Btw, what happened to *lo'e* and *le'e* ? They are not mentioned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped? Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I'll take a shot a= t guessing how it should work. Lets start with *lo* . The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] *lo* [optional inner quantifier] *broda* * * *lo broda means "at least one mass of broda". For example, lo nanmu brevi l= e pipno means "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object in which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like mudri* or *rokci* the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a natural number. *lo* *n* *broda* where *n* is a quantifier means "at least one mass of * broda* out of a mass of *n* *broda".* Supposedly, the later mass of *n* * broda* is not just a random collection of *broda* but a group unified by something. For example, *lo mu nanmu brevi le pipno* means "at least one group of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of the mass is still unknown, but it can be at most *n*. *m* *lo broda* where *m* is a quantifier means "*m *individual *broda*". Fo= r example, *su'o ci lo nanmu brevi le pipno* means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand *ci lo nanmu brevi le pipono* means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of men does this". *m* *lo n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m individual broda* out of a mass of *n **broda*". For example, *ci le mu nanmu brevi le pipno* mea= ns "3 men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of men within that group of 5 men does this". *loi* : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] *pi* [optional fractional outer quantifier] *loi* [optional inner quantifier] *broda* * * *loi broda is the same as lo broda . loi n broda is the same as lo n broda = . m loi broda where m is a quantifier means "m masses of broda". For example, su'o ci loi nanmu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". O= n the other hand ci loi nanmu brevi le pipono means "3 groups of men carry th= e piano(s) and no other man or group of men does this". The size of the masse= s is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus i= n effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous entities. Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu simxu lo nu damba which means "three groups of men fight against each other", where "each other" means between the groups, not within them. m loi n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m masses of broda out of = a mass of n broda". For example, ci loi mu no nanmu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu brevi le pipono means "3 groups of me= n carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men within that group of 50 men does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous entities. Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses involved. For example ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu brevi le pipno means the sam= e as above, with the added information that the 3 groups of men together consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men. lo'i : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi [optional fractional outer quantifier] lo'i [optional inner quantifier] broda lo'i broda means "at least one mass of sets of broda" lo'i n broda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n broda" m lo'i broda means "m sets of broda" m lo'i n broda means "m subsets of a set of n broda" Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of union of the sets involved. le lei le'i work in the same way except that a priori, I don't consider all broda but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The inner quantifier specifies the size of this set. la lai la'i work in the same way except that they refer to things named broda . The inner quantifier is merely a part of the name. It is also an interesting question how sumti-based descriptions (which are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau of the "reference grammar") work in xorlo. * 2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich > wrote: > > > > In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than 1 > man > > and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and suc= h > a > > term cannot be a "constant". > > This might help understand how a term can have plural reference: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.or= g > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --001485eb00c9385a590472ef0975 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Btw, what happened to lo'e=A0and le'e=A0? They are not mentioned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?<= div>
Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo,= I'll take a shot at guessing how it should work.

Lets start with lo=A0. The syntax is
<= br>
[optional outer quantifier] lo=A0[optional inner quant= ifier] broda

lo broda=A0means "at least= one mass of broda".=A0For example, lo nanmu brevi le pipno=A0means = "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size of the= mass is unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object in which = case it is in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like m= udri=A0or rokci=A0the size might be meaningless i.e. not represe= ntable as a natural number.

lo=A0n=A0broda=A0where n=A0= is a quantifier means "at least one mass of broda=A0out of a ma= ss of n=A0broda".=A0Supposedly, the later mass of n=A0broda=A0is not just a random collection of broda=A0but a= group unified by something. For example, lo mu nanmu brevi le pipno= =A0means "at least one group of men out of a group of 5 men carries th= e piano(s)". The size of the mass is still unknown, but it can be at m= ost n.

m=A0lo broda=A0where m=A0is a quan= tifier means "m individual broda". For example, = su'o ci lo nanmu brevi le pipno=A0means "3 men carry the piano= (s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of= men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo nanmu brevi le pipon= o=A0means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other ma= n or group of men does this".

m=A0lo=A0n=A0broda=A0where n=A0and m=A0= are quantifier means "m=A0individual broda=A0out of = a mass of n broda". For example, ci le mu nanmu brevi= le pipno=A0means "3 men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s= ) (individually) and no other man or group of men within that group of 5 men=A0does this".

loi=A0: The syntax is [optional outer quantifier= ] pi=A0[optional fractional outer quantifier] loi=A0[optional= inner quantifier] broda

loi broda=A0is the same as lo broda .=A0loi=A0n=A0broda=A0is the s= ame as=A0lo=A0n=A0broda .

m=A0loi broda=A0where=A0m=A0is a q= uantifier means "m=A0masses of=A0broda". For exampl= e,=A0su'o ci loi nanmu brevi le pipno=A0means "3 groups of = men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or group= s of men do this as well". On the other hand=A0ci loi nanmu brevi l= e pipono=A0means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other = man or group of men does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In = particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect indivi= duals. The size might be meaningless for continuous=A0entities.
Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu simxu lo nu damba=A0which m= eans "three groups of men fight against each other", where "= each other" means between the groups, not within them.

m=A0loi=A0n=A0broda=A0where=A0n=A0and=A0m=A0are quantif= ier means=A0"m=A0masses of=A0broda=A0out of a mass of=A0= n=A0broda". For example,=A0ci loi mu no nanmu brevi le pipno=A0mean= s "3 groups of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the = piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do th= is as well".=A0On the other hand=A0ci loi nanmu brevi le pipono= =A0means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group= of men=A0within that group of 50 men=A0does this". The size of th= e masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 a= nd thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous= =A0entities.

Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total si= ze of the masses involved. For example=A0ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu brevi le pipno=A0means the same as above, with the added information that the 3 groups o= f men together consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.

lo'i=A0: The syntax is [optional outer = quantifier]=A0pi=A0[optional fractional outer quantifier]=A0lo= 9;i=A0[optional inner quantifier]=A0broda

<= /div>
= lo'i brodalo'i=A0n=A0broda=A0means "at le= ast one mass of subsets of a set of n=A0broda"

m=A0lo'i broda=A0means "m sets= =A0of=A0broda"

m=A0lo'i=A0n=A0broda=A0m= eans "m subsets of a set of n=A0broda"

Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of = union of the sets involved.

le=A0le= i le'i work in the same way except that a=A0priori, I don't con= sider all broda=A0but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The inner quantifier= specifies the size of this set.
la lai la'i=A0work in the same way except that they refer to th= ings named=A0broda=A0. The inner quantifier is merely a part of t= he name.

It is also an interesting question how sumti-bas= ed descriptions (which are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau=A0of the &q= uot;reference=A0grammar")=A0work in xorlo.

2009/9/6 Jorge Ll= amb=EDas <jjll= ambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich<top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather t= han 1 man
> and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically=A0necessary, and = such a
> term cannot be a "constant".

This might help understand how a term can have plural reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification

mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.


--001485eb00c9385a590472ef0975-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.