From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Sep 06 14:40:35 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkPTO-0007QF-QA for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:40:35 -0700 Received: from web50406.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.38.71]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkPTH-0007Pr-OM for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:40:34 -0700 Received: (qmail 48975 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Sep 2009 21:40:21 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1252273221; bh=nJt49FHOU86bFKLujs0TgUQH51AC0xF/O9W6nsMvOHk=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=2Op/Bgj+ix+6OFGd8PgdMcLh4wZwIOGG2e0R+nGJrbKmkZGOWqTTCX7SrfZ7CNHnLNXuRw4jGYot67LzD6+A6vqoSvuGntYXtF7NRFQmYJwDhwFTcQOM/+deEYTVV5hDdujC1C6vq+ajKlreULcpN/h32NQS7beqBbklZmQ52MQ= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Opm1/nUqCH26HatMWPdBBFRFuY1hyxyQ0wMD0zPeqpTqXuYafHPbn2NPooF9lC7s6dnrfOgZg/KZhLRtb/IU2CxknyRJs1F+GU23IdT7+Ch4HMGhmJNOoQf6ywXq1IQ19K/DJ909Q0xz0szFxcuiHCUFLQYArtHjmdtaKhXV+38=; Message-ID: <395902.46727.qm@web50406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: KmDf3WQVM1kcxpkqoheTDQWdxTPM7YDjKPq1y3MORZwzr.zbvQYX8ch34WG1gragAg5RPYKUsKSSyhegTdhFGo0mmQgMnSboC6vIrWlIxnUxN3b1oB0bL_PMwrv9AzSbGlPWcmnYJc._sO5RiL5Qg3Upxzr6xWOiXmwDoFQBaZzBR1K87jelXO1W3P1PCnbGn2GJW3ZIlKGBGxKgawAKj3c1xqLcvIU9yKF1GtXFVxFGjOTOi.91prXsGIfIQiYgfqgqYAI3hf720YOyvSJT8zpvf6GPEnesT5JFqGHWRRbwvPrzO9KxEnaEw31YQTqZ2xx04hVKsTdGev4.a_xihNYdP287_N2pBe32vkzZpmY- Received: from [71.202.193.61] by web50406.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:40:21 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1358.27 YahooMailWebService/0.7.347.2 References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909060746n223ad9c7ic88894c3513a6ea1@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909061401n35c37197j6ff4fac5b267fc5e@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909061426r95b84efu76464f7327430f6c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 14:40:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Lindar Greenwood Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <9ada8ecd0909061426r95b84efu76464f7327430f6c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1701904818-1252273221=:46727" X-archive-position: 16090 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-1701904818-1252273221=:46727 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable s/brevi/bevri/=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Squar= k Rabinovich =0ATo: lojban-list@lojban.org=0ASent: Su= nday, September 6, 2009 2:26:03 PM=0ASubject: [lojban] Re: xorlo=0A=0A=0AOo= ps, I forgot cu in all of my examples. I fixed them below.=0A=0A=0AOn Mon, = Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich wrote:=0A= =0ABtw, what happened to lo'e and le'e ? They are not mentioned in the page= s about xorlo. Were they scrapped?=0A>=0A>=0A>Anyway, since nobody gave a c= omplete answer about xorlo, I'll take a shot at guessing how it should work= .=0A>=0A>=0A>Lets start with lo . The syntax is=0A>=0A>=0A>[optional outer = quantifier] lo [optional inner quantifier] broda=0A>=0A>=0A>lo broda means = "at least one mass of broda". For example, lo nanmu cu brevi le pipno means= "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The size of the mass is = unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object in which case it i= s in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like mudri or rokci th= e size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a natural number.=0A>= =0A>=0A>lo n broda where n is a quantifier means "at least one mass of brod= a out of a mass of n broda". Supposedly, the later mass of n broda is not j= ust a random collection of broda but a group unified by something. For exam= ple, lo mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "at least one group of men out of = a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of the mass is still unkno= wn, but it can be at most n.=0A>=0A>=0A>m lo broda where m is a quantifier = means "m individual broda". For example, su'o ci lo nanmu cu brevi le pipno= means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other in= dividual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo= nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and= no other man or group of men does this".=0A>=0A>=0A>m lo n broda where n a= nd m are quantifier means "m individual broda out of a mass of n broda". Fo= r example, ci le mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 men out of a group of = 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or group of men wi= thin that group of 5 men does this".=0A>=0A>=0A>loi : The syntax is [option= al outer quantifier] pi [optional fractional outer quantifier] loi [optiona= l inner quantifier] broda=0A>=0A>=0A>loi broda is the same as lo broda . lo= i n broda is the same as lo n broda .=0A>=0A>=0A>m loi broda where m is a q= uantifier means "m masses of broda". For example, su'o ci loi nanmu cu brev= i le pipno means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s), and possibly some oth= er individual men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand = ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s) an= d no other man or group of men does this". The size of the masses is unknow= n. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect = individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous entities.=0A>>Ano= ther example is lu'i ci loi nanmu cu simxu lo nu damba which means "three g= roups of men fight against each other", where "each other" means between th= e groups, not within them.=0A>=0A>=0A>m loi n broda where n and m are quant= ifier means "m masses of broda out of a mass of n broda". For example, ci l= oi mu no nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men which are subgroups= of a group of 50 men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individua= l men and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu= cu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other m= an or group of men within that group of 50 men does this". The size of the = masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and= thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous e= ntities.=0A>=0A>=0A>Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total si= ze of the masses involved. For example ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu cu brevi le= pipno means the same as above, with the added information that the 3 group= s of men together consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.= =0A>=0A>=0A>lo'i : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi [optional f= ractional outer quantifier] lo'i [optional inner quantifier] broda=0A>=0A>= =0A>lo'i broda means "at least one mass of sets of broda" =0A>=0A>=0A>lo'i = n broda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n broda"=0A>=0A>=0A= >m lo'i broda means "m sets of broda"=0A>=0A>=0A>m lo'i n broda means "m su= bsets of a set of n broda"=0A>=0A>=0A>Adding a fractional outer quantifier = fixes the size of union of the sets involved.=0A>=0A>=0A>le lei le'i work i= n the same way except that a priori, I don't consider all broda but a speci= fic set of things-I-call-broda. The inner quantifier specifies the size of = this set.=0A>la lai la'i work in the same way except that they refer to thi= ngs named broda . The inner quantifier is merely a part of the name.=0A>=0A= >=0A>It is also an interesting question how sumti-based descriptions (which= are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau of the "reference grammar") work in xorl= o.=0A>=0A>=0A>2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas =0A>=0A>=0A>O= n Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich wrot= e:=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 wome= n rather than 1 man=0A>>>>> and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logi= cally necessary, and such a=0A>>>>> term cannot be a "constant".=0A>>=0A>>T= his might help understand how a term can have plural reference:=0A>>http://= en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification=0A>>=0A>>>>mu'o mi'e xorxes=0A>= >=0A>>=0A>>>>To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-reques= t@lojban.org=0A>>>>with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban= .org/lsg2/, or if=0A>>>>you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.= org for help.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1701904818-1252273221=:46727 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
s/brevi/bevri/

From: Squark Ra= binovich <top.squark@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2009 2:26:03 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo

=0A
Oops, I forgot cu in all of my exampl= es. I fixed them below.

On Mon, Sep 7, 20= 09 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:
=0A
Btw, = what happened to lo'e and le'e ? They are not menti= oned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?
=0A
An= yway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I'll take a shot at = guessing how it should work.
=0A

Lets start with lo . The syntax is

[optional outer quant= ifier] lo [optional inner quantifier] broda

lo broda me= ans "at least one mass of broda"= . For example, lo nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "at least one group of men carries the= piano(s)". The size of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consist o= f a single object in which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for cont= inuous things like mudri or rokci the size migh= t be meaningless i.e. not representable as a natural number.
=0A=0A

lo n brod= a where n is a quantifier means "at least one mass of = broda out of a mass of n broda". Suppos= edly, the later mass of n broda is not just a rando= m collection of broda but a group unified by something. For exa= mple, lo mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "at least one= group of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size of th= e mass is still unknown, but it can be at most n.
= =0A=0A

m lo broda where m=  is a quantifier means "m individual broda". For example= , su'o ci lo nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 men carry= the piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or= groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo nanmu cu <= i>brevi le pipno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) an= d no other man or group of men does this".
=0A= =0A

m lo n broda&nbs= p;where n and m are quantifier means "m = ;individual broda out of a mass of n broda". = For example, ci le mu nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3= men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other= man or group of men within tha= t group of 5 men does this".
=0A=0A

loi : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi [optional fractional outer quantifier] loi [optional in= ner quantifier] broda

=0A=0Aloi broda is the same as lo broda . loi n broda is the same a= s lo n broda .
=0A
=
m loi broda where m = ;is a quantifier means "m masses of broda". For exa= mple, su'o ci loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3= groups of men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men a= nd/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanm= u cu=  brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men carry the piano= (s) and no other man or group of men does this". The size of the masses is = unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in e= ffect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous entiti= es.
=0A
=0AAnother example is lu'i ci loi= nanmu = cu simxu lo nu damba which means "three groups of m= en fight against each other", where "each other" means between the groups, = not within them.
=0A

=0A
m loi n broda=  where n and m are quantifier means&= nbsp;"m masses of broda out of a mass of n broda". For example, ci loi mu no nanmu <= span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-style: normal;">cu&nbs= p;brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men which are subgroups of = a group of 50 men carry the piano(s), and possibly some other individual me= n and/or groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci = loi nanmu cu brevi le pipno means "3 groups of men carry t= he piano(s) and no other man or group of men within that group of 50 men&n= bsp;does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of= the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might= be meaningless for continuous entities.<= /i>
=0A=0A

Adding a fractiona= l outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses involved. For example=  ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu cu = brevi le pipno means the sa= me as above, with the added information that the 3 groups of men together c= onsist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.
= =0A=0A

lo'i : The syntax is [optional o= uter quantifier] pi [optional fractional outer quantifier]=  lo'i [optional inner quantifier] broda
<= div>
=0A=0Alo'i broda means "at least one= mass of sets of broda" 
=0A
lo'i n b= roda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n broda"
=0A
m lo'i= broda means "m sets of broda"
<= br>
m lo'i=  n broda means "m subsets of a set of n=  broda"
=0A=0A

Addin= g a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of union of the sets involve= d.

le lei le'i work in the= same way except that a priori, I don't consider all broda = ;but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The inner quantifier spe= cifies the size of this set.
=0A=0A
la lai la'i work in the same way except= that they refer to things name= d broda . The inner quantifier is merely a part of = the name.
=0A=0A

It is also an interesting question= how sumti-based descriptions (which are mentioned in the xamoi c= kupau of the "reference grammar") work in xorlo.
=0A
=0A

2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
=
=0A
=0A
On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich<= top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:=
=0A>
=0A> In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 = women rather than 1 man
=0A> and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier = is logically necessary, and such a
=0A> term cannot be a "consta= nt".
=0A
=0A
This might help understand how a term can have plur= al reference:
=0Ahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantif= ication
=0A
=0Amu'o mi'e xorxes
=0A
=0A
=0ATo uns= ubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
=0Awith = the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
=0Ayou're= really stuck, send mail to secreta= ry@lojban.org for help.
=0A
=0A
=0A

=0A
=0A=0A --0-1701904818-1252273221=:46727-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.