From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Sep 06 14:49:03 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkPbY-0007pj-TY for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:49:03 -0700 Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.78.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkPbR-0007od-9n for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:49:00 -0700 Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 3so819679eyh.36 for ; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:48:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ZovZH3cRdDWxFBvC5sarRSaaDf9bYGaygxhHicNnFEg=; b=mYFx38MZZjdZV7+fhkZQSyjO1DuOfzqFfA+aXelrjBbqS9D3uFTHkFHtdL4TAwxfIr u9yEIQBYtWPtBm5U25bEAmZZUQfITrk27pqdYtExwz0TulA3FKIyY2+/R0T3tlo4YkHl Yv66iPdahHY7/U6gT6w8B4pIgoTbFKULL74+I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=ghIJ7RxGPyKR0UP1ojj2nmEWvvpMu9D4EWIp/VRyrj6VOJc6zOE3SHcHw+sMNFcQnh aoZ5ftHzI60fSlXree+R/N8M3/e0vkL9omRZL3yHpj3wuD6J0c6fpucWtxqOE771kyYY /GWdZZ3PU5X7d2N2uZqwr5NgRkCFhJYDqD6k8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.210.93.27 with SMTP id q27mr834613ebb.6.1252273731627; Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:48:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <395902.46727.qm@web50406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909060746n223ad9c7ic88894c3513a6ea1@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909061401n35c37197j6ff4fac5b267fc5e@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909061426r95b84efu76464f7327430f6c@mail.gmail.com> <395902.46727.qm@web50406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 00:48:51 +0300 Message-ID: <9ada8ecd0909061448p2eaa92ep19569f2b66793b76@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo From: Squark Rabinovich To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1e496ef6e1f0472efb2cd X-archive-position: 16091 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: top.squark@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --000e0cd1e496ef6e1f0472efb2cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oooops! Fixed it in the quotation below. Another remark: since in xorlo there are no default quantifiers, *ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno* probably means not that "in the entire universe, exactly 3 men carry the piano(s)", but that "exactly 3 men carry the piano out of some implicit mass of men". The former meaning would be conveyed by = *ci lo ro nanmu cu bevri le pipno* . On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Lindar Greenwood wrote: > s/brevi/bevri/ > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Squark Rabinovich > *To:* lojban-list@lojban.org > *Sent:* Sunday, September 6, 2009 2:26:03 PM > *Subject:* [lojban] Re: xorlo > > Oops, I forgot *cu* in all of my examples. I fixed them below. > > On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Squark Rabinovich = wrote: > >> Btw, what happened to *lo'e* and *le'e* ? They are not mentioned in the >> pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped? >> Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I'll take a sho= t >> at guessing how it should work. >> >> Lets start with *lo* . The syntax is >> >> [optional outer quantifier] *lo* [optional inner quantifier] *broda* >> * >> * >> *lo broda means "at least one mass of broda". For example, lo nanmu cu b= evri >> le pipno means "at least one group of men carries the piano(s)". The siz= e >> of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consist of a single object = in >> which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for continuous things like >> mudri or rokci the size might be meaningless i.e. not representable as a >> natural number.* >> >> *lo* *n* *broda* where *n* is a quantifier means "at least one mass of * >> broda* out of a mass of *n* *broda".* Supposedly, the later mass of *n* = * >> broda* is not just a random collection of *broda* but a group unified by >> something. For example, *lo mu nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "at least >> one group of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The size= of >> the mass is still unknown, but it can be at most n.* >> >> *m* *lo broda* where *m* is a quantifier means "*m *individual *broda*". >> For example, *su'o ci lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 men carry the >> piano(s) (individually), and possibly some other individual men and/or >> groups of men do this as well". On the other hand ci lo nanmu cu bevri l= e >> pipno means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no other man or >> group of men does this".* >> >> *m* *lo n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m individual broda* = out >> of a mass of *n **broda*". For example, *ci le mu nanmu cu bevri le pipn= o means >> "3 men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (individually) and no >> other man or group of men within that group of 5 men does this".* >> >> *loi* : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] *pi* [optional >> fractional outer quantifier] *loi* [optional inner quantifier] *broda* >> * >> * >> * loi broda is the same as lo broda . loi n broda is the same as lo n br= oda >> . >> >> m loi broda where m is a quantifier means "m masses of broda". For >> example, su'o ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 groups of men carr= y >> the piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of me= n do >> this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 >> groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does >> this". The size of the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the >> masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect individuals. The size might b= e >> meaningless for continuous entities. >> Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu cu simxu lo nu damba which means >> "three groups of men fight against each other", where "each other" means >> between the groups, not within them. >> >> m loi n broda where n and m are quantifier means "m masses of broda out >> of a mass of n broda". For example, ci loi mu no nanmu cu bevri le pipno= means >> "3 groups of men which are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the >> piano(s), and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do >> this as well". On the other hand ci loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "3 >> groups of men carry the piano(s) and no other man or group of men within >> that group of 50 men does this". The size of the masses is unknown. In >> particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and thus in effect >> individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous entities. >> >> Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total size of the masses >> involved. For example ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu cu bevri le pipno means >> the same as above, with the added information that the 3 groups of men >> together consist 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men. >> >> lo'i : The syntax is [optional outer quantifier] pi [optional fractional >> outer quantifier] lo'i [optional inner quantifier] broda >> >> lo'i broda means "at least one mass of sets of broda" >> >> lo'i n broda means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n broda" >> >> m lo'i broda means "m sets of broda" >> >> m lo'i n broda means "m subsets of a set of n broda" >> >> Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of union of the sets >> involved. >> >> le lei le'i work in the same way except that a priori, I don't consider >> all broda but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The inner quantifie= r >> specifies the size of this set. >> la lai la'i work in the same way except that they refer to things named >> broda . The inner quantifier is merely a part of the name. >> >> It is also an interesting question how sumti-based descriptions (which >> are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau of the "reference grammar") work in >> xorlo. >> * >> >> 2009/9/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather than= 1 >>> man >>> > and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically necessary, and >>> such a >>> > term cannot be a "constant". >>> >>> This might help understand how a term can have plural reference: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification >>> >>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >>> >>> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to >>> lojban-list-request@lojban.org >>> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or >>> if >>> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. >>> >>> >> > > --000e0cd1e496ef6e1f0472efb2cd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oooops! Fixed it in the quotation below.

Another remark: since in xorlo there are no default quantifiers, ci lo= nanmu cu bevri le pipno=A0probably means not that "in the entire = universe, exactly 3 men carry the piano(s)", but that "exactly 3 = men carry the piano out of some implicit mass of men". The former mean= ing would be conveyed by ci lo ro nanmu cu bevri le pipno=A0.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Lindar Gree= nwood <lind= arthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
s/brevi/bevri/

From: Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com>

To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Sunday, Septembe= r 6, 2009 2:26:03 PM
Subject:= [lojban] Re: xorlo

Oops, I forgot cu=A0in all of my examples. I fixed = them below.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 = AM, Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:
Btw, w= hat happened to lo'e=A0and le'e=A0? They are not ment= ioned in the pages about xorlo. Were they scrapped?

Anyway, since nobody gave a complete answer about xorlo, I&#= 39;ll take a shot at guessing how it should work.

Lets start with lo=A0. The syntax is
<= br>
[optional outer quantifier] lo=A0[optional inner quant= ifier] broda

lo broda=A0means "at least one mass of broda".=A0For example, lo nanmu=A0cu=A0= bevri le pipno=A0means "at least one group of men carries the p= iano(s)". The size of the mass is unknown, in particular it can consis= t of a single object in which case it is in fact an individual. Also, for c= ontinuous things like mudri=A0or rokci=A0the size might b= e meaningless i.e. not representable as a natural number.=

lo=A0n=A0broda=A0where n=A0= is a quantifier means "at least one mass of broda=A0out of a ma= ss of n=A0broda".=A0Supposedly, the later mass of n=A0broda=A0is not just a random collection of broda=A0but a= group unified by something. For example, lo mu nanmu=A0cu=A0bevri le pipno=A0means "at least = one group of men out of a group of 5 men carries the piano(s)". The si= ze of the mass is still unknown, but it can be at most n.=

m=A0lo broda=A0where m=A0is a quan= tifier means "m individual broda". For example, = su'o ci lo nanmu=A0cu=A0bev= ri le pipno=A0means "3 men carry the piano(s) (individually), and = possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well&quo= t;. On the other hand ci lo nanmu=A0cu=A0bevri le pipno=A0means "3 men carry the piano(s) (ind= ividually) and no other man or group of men does this".

m=A0lo=A0n=A0broda=A0where n=A0= and m=A0are quantifier means "m=A0individual brod= a=A0out of a mass of n broda". For example, ci le= mu nanmu=A0cu=A0bevri le pipno= =A0means "3 men out of a group of 5 men carry the piano(s) (indivi= dually) and no other man or group of men within that group of 5 men=A0does this".

loi=A0: The syntax is [optional outer quantifier= ] pi=A0[optional fractional outer quantifier] loi=A0[optional= inner quantifier] broda

loi broda=A0is the same as lo b= roda .=A0loi=A0n=A0broda= =A0is the same as=A0lo=A0n=A0broda .

m=A0loi broda=A0where=A0m=A0is a q= uantifier means "m=A0masses of=A0broda". For exampl= e,=A0su'o ci loi nanmu=A0cu= =A0bevri le pipno=A0means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s), = and possibly some other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well= ". On the other hand=A0ci loi nanmu=A0cu=A0bevri le pipno=A0means "3 groups of men carry = the piano(s) and no other man or group of men does this". The size of = the masses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1= and thus in effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuo= us=A0entities.
Another example is lu'i ci loi nanmu=A0cu=A0simxu lo nu damba=A0which means "three groups = of men fight against each other", where "each other" means b= etween the groups, not within them.

m=A0loi=A0n=A0br= oda=A0where=A0n=A0and=A0m=A0are quantifier means=A0"m=A0masses of=A0broda=A0out of a mass of=A0n=A0broda". For example,=A0ci loi mu no nanmu=A0cu=A0bevri le pipno=A0means "3 groups of men w= hich are subgroups of a group of 50 men carry the piano(s), and possibly so= me other individual men and/or groups of men do this as well".=A0On th= e other hand=A0ci loi nanmu=A0cu=A0bevri le pipno=A0means "3 groups of men carry the piano(s) = and no other man or group of men=A0within that group of 50 men=A0does this". The size of the mas= ses is unknown. In particular any/all of the masses can be of size 1 and th= us in effect individuals. The size might be meaningless for continuous=A0en= tities.

Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the total si= ze of the masses involved. For example=A0= ci pi vo loi mu no nanmu=A0cu=A0bevri le pipno=A0means the same as a= bove, with the added information that the 3 groups of men together consist = 0.4 of the total group i.e. 50 x 0.4 =3D 20 men.

lo'i=A0: The syntax is [optional outer = quantifier]=A0pi=A0[optional fractional outer quantifier]=A0lo= 9;i=A0[optional inner quantifier]=A0broda

<= /div>
lo'i broda=A0means "at least one mass of sets of broda&= quot;=A0

lo'i= =A0n=A0broda=A0means "at least one mass of subsets of a set of n=A0broda"

m=A0lo'i broda=A0means "m sets= =A0of=A0broda"

m=A0lo'i=A0<= b>n=A0broda=A0means "m= subsets of a set of n=A0broda"

Adding a fractional outer quantifier fixes the size of = union of the sets involved.

le=A0le= i le'i work in the same way except that a=A0priori, I don't con= sider all broda=A0but a specific set of things-I-call-broda. The = inner quantifier specifies the size of this set.
la lai la'i=A0work= in the same way except that they refer to things named=A0broda=A0. The inner quantifier is me= rely a part of the name.

It is also an interesting question how sumti-bas= ed descriptions (which are mentioned in the xamoi ckupau=A0of the &q= uot;reference=A0grammar")=A0work in xorlo.

2009/9/6 Jorge Ll= amb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Squark Rabinovich<top.squark@gmail.= com> wrote:
>
> In other words, since we're doing about 5 men and 3 women rather t= han 1 man
> and 1 woman, it seems that a quantifier is logically=A0necessary, and = such a
> term cannot be a "constant".

This might help understand how a term can have plural reference:
<= span> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification

mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@l= ojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--000e0cd1e496ef6e1f0472efb2cd-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.