From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Sep 08 15:17:38 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ml90M-0001D3-8D for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:17:38 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f217.google.com ([209.85.219.217]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ml90I-0001CZ-OE for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:17:38 -0700 Received: by ewy17 with SMTP id 17so464782ewy.15 for ; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:17:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=3BjfVG3TSKJ++y9g2I4jPI9nNNf8gNGBtQubvGlTwqc=; b=tST7qdatd1An8aXIETSaqkoOXkD5StT3k3uBF9Ht3Wdci7OXgHrRJotESHaDaU4TXd 9Za0StQEs4CQWY38bFvAuSk06uArxlxtvYdGdr4xIIMXtgMkaXsm0YmCoFTRysNHC9JG Ai3TXtxyflizAO5tsysgoMdNEKVQMtcnKwsG0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Bqn+l5/vmWB1ch0L7d517HA+PTM/f6uFVfdgSUGqSfl+vSrU1uX02rebIZdh8QxWHv xMfCt5dimzL2/xzH8I3fXAYLKUtd93XS944X5nv1N/ffsw9IPXXomxpTXjcbpqQRdZ5h aPyyKyLQ6bvPJ5P0BtL+g6UCK3asDkAJtRkhY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.211.147.25 with SMTP id z25mr3866874ebn.84.1252448248421; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:17:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9ada8ecd0909081431m6758386dgf241e2b27e99b5d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909080221h297baa5eqb5eba2ad6ac1d5d5@mail.gmail.com> <200909080827.14128.phma@phma.optus.nu> <9ada8ecd0909081238j2649ee89g28c6b34c72d82b18@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909081321x34f3faa1u40106c6ed49b5972@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909081431m6758386dgf241e2b27e99b5d7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 01:17:28 +0300 Message-ID: <9ada8ecd0909081517l34e7082ct2485acbfdf5609f4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo From: Squark Rabinovich To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b8d8f25f86047318548a X-Spam_score: 0.6 X-Spam_score_int: 6 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Squark Rabinovich wrote: > *lo **n** broda* can mean either "*n* *broda *, divided into masses in the > way (whatever)" (*n* *broda* regarded individually is a special case where > each mass consists of 1 *broda*) or "(whatever quantifier) of *broda* / > masses of *broda* out of the *n* *broda*". > In the light of my remarks on fractional outer quantifiers, a broader interpretation is conceivable. It is possible that we're talking about "(whatever quantifier) of *broda* out of a (specific/generic) mass of *n* * broda".* That is, *lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno* meanst that (whatever quantifier) out of a grX-archive-position: 16121 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: top.squark@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --001636c5b8d8f25f86047318548a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Squark Rabinovich wrote: > *lo **n** broda* can mean either "*n* *broda *, divided into masses in the > way (whatever)" (*n* *broda* regarded individually is a special case where > each mass consists of 1 *broda*) or "(whatever quantifier) of *broda* / > masses of *broda* out of the *n* *broda*". > In the light of my remarks on fractional outer quantifiers, a broader interpretation is conceivable. It is possible that we're talking about "(whatever quantifier) of *broda* out of a (specific/generic) mass of *n* * broda".* That is, *lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno* meanst that (whatever quantifier) out of a group of 3 men carry the piano. In particular, the quantifier doesn't have to select all 3 men. In this case, the relevance of the 3 is that they form a group, united by something beyond carrying a piano. Alternatively, it is possible that the *n* *broda* do not form a mass in any way but all of them are involved to some extent in the predicate (whether individually or as a part of a group). > *m* *lo n broda means "m individual broda out of the n broda". Hmm, I > don't like this. What is the difference between this and m le n broda ? It > doesn't appear to make much sense to use a non-specific collection of n > broda . "a person out of some three person" is strange, because why should > we care about these generic three persons? How are they related to the > meaning conveyed? For example re lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno . Two > persons are carrying piano(s), but what is the relevance of the third? > Unless it's a specific threesome we have in mind here, in which case, why > wouldn't we use le ?* > The above remarks apply here as well, solving the problem. *re lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno* means that two men out of a *group* of 3 carry the piano(s) (individually). --001636c5b8d8f25f86047318548a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:31 AM= , Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:

lo n<= i>=A0broda=A0can mean either "n=A0broda , divided in= to masses in the way (whatever)" (n=A0broda=A0regarded i= ndividually is a special case where each mass consists of 1 broda) o= r "(whatever quantifier) of broda=A0/ masses of broda=A0= out of the n=A0broda".

In the light of my remarks on fractional outer quan= tifiers, a broader interpretation is conceivable. It is possible that we= 9;re talking about "(whatever quantifier) of broda=A0out of a (= specific/generic) mass of=A0n=A0broda".=A0That is, lo= ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno=A0meanst that (whatever quantifier) out of = a group of 3 men carry the piano. In particular, the quantifier doesn't= have to select all 3 men. In this case, the relevance of the 3 is that the= y form a group, united by something beyond carrying a piano. Alternatively,= it is possible that the n=A0broda=A0do not form a mass in an= y way but all of them are involved to some extent in the predicate (whether= individually or as a part of a group).

m=A0lo n=A0broda=A0mea= ns "m=A0individual broda<= /i>=A0out of the n=A0broda= ". Hmm, I don't like this. What is the difference between this and= =A0m=A0le=A0n=A0broda=A0? It doesn't appear to make much = sense to use a non-specific collection of n=A0broda=A0. "a person out of some three person"= is strange, because why should we care about these generic three persons? = How are they related to the meaning conveyed? For example re lo ci nanmu= cu bevri le pipno=A0. Two persons are carrying piano(s), but what is t= he relevance of the third? Unless it's a specific threesome we have in = mind here, in which case, why wouldn't we use le=A0?

=A0The above remarks apply here as well, solving th= e problem. re lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno=A0means that two men out= of a group=A0of 3 carry the piano(s) (individually).
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