From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Sep 08 19:04:51 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlCYC-0001mV-Iz for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:04:50 -0700 Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.122]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlCY1-0001kI-RO for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:04:47 -0700 Received: (qmail 58987 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Sep 2009 02:04:27 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1252461867; bh=sObFQj6wZzJdiyxfxQdHFgKwv3hmGUEAlCAoI+EEFqw=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Hu1r5HjTRqGdS0FhkGqIWWzm1mpAZeFqdglIPfKSIHHV91+pd0wbmB8C0zwMmeJrs45Qy6o5Rgnjwt34nlNbSNTGUfm1zVLYkOXKEtW5QDJoXejDCzPaYUhHXNlrv8FFg4pDai8nu32EBZvYG2i85S7qo5BTdUCPlmSZIVm0gcg= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=g8l1r37IFYlqHbI+Ys95OCItRc2nn41f7OksIxvE11ExBR3mLP2RM4Pn3En9RYx0INsp3i6prZDXCebKnPtC1dNY5OgNoehqvAbxdPcyxUyuwZ9SjyZLboVYsf8sOdozOPIJBCR2Zn+1UJ2j7NqKWh/3sSJsxNQJdcnvBlweUUw=; Message-ID: <278592.56916.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 4cenqwsVM1keqFwC8_mvoIPZiptqfco7N17flKWfSPGCpqOPTnKMD2WY5yTQXTtFa1FmK2tHgbU9xYrbdIzXy1GPuk2x9Xg47XgNoIupBwHUkMBa6IBzW.yIxTwcMgTJ0KG2O0kDaQm9n881n5hbT57vAk_HEOtrc1ddp.T00QsuvA_jWuADBWLxdglW7JMlU6Wxt_ek4jKxh08w3mYxYvmBVk0BrqZ_xNlDEBD2pGTUT0KWEfDMMl5XIEWLsfJX95EQKASAP_FEpuYcBYvER8SJIGnJVioOG1jZBy2nXMzzXcpLXE1eeHaEjjDtv.rMFR0dj6TsDTaoQ.xDYW5EHb2zzTFa9z8da.Ap5fDbiuGqGf4pYZQBJo_5dil2ESi.1f0C7QsS Received: from [24.207.224.145] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:04:26 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1358.27 YahooMailWebService/0.7.338.2 References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909080221h297baa5eqb5eba2ad6ac1d5d5@mail.gmail.com> <200909080827.14128.phma@phma.optus.nu> <9ada8ecd0909081238j2649ee89g28c6b34c72d82b18@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909081321x34f3faa1u40106c6ed49b5972@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909081431m6758386dgf241e2b27e99b5d7@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909081517l34e7082ct2485acbfdf5609f4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 19:04:26 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <9ada8ecd0909081517l34e7082ct2485acbfdf5609f4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1252587300-1252461866=:56916" X-archive-position: 16126 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-1252587300-1252461866=:56916 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ________________________________ From: Squark Rabinovich To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 5:17:28 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Squark Rabinovich wrote: lo n broda can mean either "n broda , divided into masses in the way (whatever)" (n broda regarded individually is a special case where each mass consists of 1 broda) or "(whatever quantifier) of broda / masses of broda out of the n broda". In the light of my remarks on fractional outer quantifiers, a broader interpretation is conceivable. It is possible that we're talking about "(whatever quantifier) of broda out of a (specific/generic) mass of n broda". That is, lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno meanst that (whatever quantifier) out of a group of 3 men carry the piano. In particular, the quantifier doesn't have to select all 3 men. In this case, the relevance of the 3 is that they form a group, united by something beyond carrying a piano. Actually, carrying the piano is enough as is almost anything else, but mainly someone taking them together. Without a quantifier, it just means that the three carry the piano together (however that may be done in the terms of what each one does) not some subbunch of them. And this is not a mass. Alternatively, it is possible that the n broda do not form a mass in any way but all of them are involved to some extent in the predicate (whether individually or as a part of a group). Directly only as part of the bunch (one of the men referred to). Individually, they only participate in the carrying. m lo n broda means "m individual broda out of the n broda". Hmm, I don't like this. What is the difference between this and m le n broda ? It doesn't appear to make much sense to use a non-specific collection of n broda . "a person out of some three person" is strange, because why should we care about these generic three persons? How are they related to the meaning conveyed? For example re lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno . Two persons are carrying piano(s), but what is the relevance of the third? Unless it's a specific threesome we have in mind here, in which case, why wouldn't we use le ? The above remarks apply here as well, solving the problem. re lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno means that two men out of a group of 3 carry the piano(s) (individually). Yep, except for the dangers of using "group" (I do partially agree with xorxes about these dangers, especially when the word involved has an established meaning). --0-1252587300-1252461866=:56916 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


From: Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 5:17:28 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Squark Rabinovich <top.squark@gmail.com> wrote:

lo n broda can mean either "n broda , divided into masses in the way (whatever)" (n broda regarded individually is a special case where each mass consists of 1 broda) or "(whatever quantifier) of broda / masses of broda out of the n broda".

In the light of my remarks on fractional outer quantifiers, a broader interpretation is conceivable. It is possible that we're talking about "(whatever quantifier) of broda out of a (specific/generic) mass of n broda". That is, lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno meanst that (whatever quantifier) out of a group of 3 men carry the piano. In particular, the quantifier doesn't have to select all 3 men. In this case, the relevance of the 3 is that they form a group, united by something beyond carrying a piano.

Actually, carrying the piano is enough as is almost anything else, but mainly someone taking them together.
Without a quantifier, it just means that the three carry the piano together (however that may be done in the terms of what each one does) not some subbunch of them.  And this is not a mass.
Alternatively, it is possible that the n broda do not form a mass in any way but all of them are involved to some extent in the predicate (whether individually or as a part of a group).

 Directly only as part of the bunch (one of the men referred to). Individually, they only participate in the carrying.

m lo n broda means "m individual broda out of the n broda". Hmm, I don't like this. What is the difference between this and m le n broda ? It doesn't appear to make much sense to use a non-specific collection of n broda . "a person out of some three person" is strange, because why should we care about these generic three persons? How are they related to the meaning conveyed? For example re lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno . Two persons are carrying piano(s), but what is the relevance of the third? Unless it's a specific threesome we have in mind here, in which case, why wouldn't we use le ?

 The above remarks apply here as well, solving the problem. re lo ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno means that two men out of a group of 3 carry the piano(s) (individually).

Yep, except for the dangers of using "group" (I do partially agree with xorxes about these dangers, especially when the word involved has an established meaning).

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