From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 09 14:01:38 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlUIL-0005VN-RM for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:01:38 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f216.google.com ([209.85.219.216]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlUIF-0005V0-HG for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:01:37 -0700 Received: by ewy12 with SMTP id 12so5509687ewy.0 for ; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=hv984ScshgMY9B4fZz6TEbr2wD77WaI4AUy9pSeqNiA=; b=Ke/AN1o/wNk02EO09YvXjATX/iZy128CITgvKRnf2I1DLNqOREWXrRTwH6i4ny91FN s+4vTfE3hprIgq4aTkpTlFKcs5ErJWtw5zkPLcoWPUSwjnlpjx/ZaQ5vGvHoB5VrzwyG cnBGUShodo3ARXIAn5awuK7VmF/b4KB+1QlUI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=irOYOSyescXYo3FvcBGjDugKWFF5irooHnLC6N5qfmEXkpxDWSB3zLxX9+/i1PlsiM 1gLwasU74yQLCH5clx6i3o7vkL8lhrNznO62VAPaCOj8fuFegSZgkJfkyp25GFDrCfsv bzNgAqmCeuruiOUNC36JIH/wJDwCQUV4vNbxc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.211.130.19 with SMTP id h19mr785393ebn.54.1252530084159; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:01:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <14010706-F7BA-4762-A184-2DC9539A1CCE@mac.com> References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <200909080827.14128.phma@phma.optus.nu> <9ada8ecd0909081238j2649ee89g28c6b34c72d82b18@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909081321x34f3faa1u40106c6ed49b5972@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909081431m6758386dgf241e2b27e99b5d7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909081613o6eec4c9i71c10f8f418e5c17@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909091032h9c4c838x4addad9337e10f18@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909091203x10546568pdea651459f482baa@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909091328g2d96f57akb78541aa80ef4e4c@mail.gmail.com> <14010706-F7BA-4762-A184-2DC9539A1CCE@mac.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 00:01:24 +0300 Message-ID: <9ada8ecd0909091401u5fe74ef3g2bc886147dd3b0c6@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo From: Squark Rabinovich To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502c60dbcc1a604732b629d X-archive-position: 16136 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: top.squark@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --00504502c60dbcc1a604732b629d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What's the difference between non-specifying information specifically and non-specifically? Either you give the information or you don't. The only difference I can imagine is that *lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno* allows for the information to be specified by context. That is, the quantifier is implicit and determined by context, but in every specific context it *is* there. Perhaps you're saying that *lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno* means that at least one man carries the piano with the subtext that the speaker might know the actual number of men involved, whereas *su'o nanmu cu bevri le pipno* means the speaker doesn't know the number of men? I don't think so: the later is just a statement of fact without additional implications. If it's not, what *would* be a plain statement of fact? On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:50 PM, Kevin Reid wrote: > On Sep 9, 2009, at 16:28, Squark Rabinovich wrote: > > Then lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "at least one man carries the >> piano(s)". This means precisely that a situation of men that carry the >> piano(s) exists, but we don't know how many men are there. >> > > Careful with that "we don't know". > > - The speaker may know how many men, but not say so. > > - The *listener* will not know how many. > > This phrase is not specifically indeterminate in number in the way the > English "at least one ..." is; it just doesn't specify any number other than > at least one. > > Similarly, in English "men carried the piano" implies there were su'o re > men carrying the piano, but it is not specifically not-specifying the > number, just leaving out the information. > > -- > Kevin Reid > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --00504502c60dbcc1a604732b629d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What's the difference between non-specifying informati= on specifically and non-specifically? Either you give the information or yo= u don't. The only difference I can imagine is that lo nanmu cu bevri= le pipno=A0allows for the information to be specified by context. That= is, the quantifier is implicit and determined by context, but in every spe= cific context it is=A0there. Perhaps you're saying that lo na= nmu cu bevri le pipno=A0means that at least one man carries the piano w= ith the subtext that the speaker might know the actual number of men involv= ed, whereas su'o nanmu cu bevri le pipno=A0means the speaker doe= sn't know the number of men? I don't think so: the later is just a = statement of fact without additional implications. If it's not, what would=A0be a plain statement of fact?

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:50 PM, Kevin Reid = <kpreid@mac.com&= gt; wrote:
On Sep 9, 2009, at 16:28, Squark Rabinovich wrote:

Then lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno means "at least one man carries the pi= ano(s)". This means precisely that a situation of men that carry the p= iano(s) exists, but we don't know how many men are there.

Careful with that "we don't know".

=A0- The speaker may know how many men, but not say so.

=A0- The *listener* will not know how many.

This phrase is not specifically indeterminate in number in the way the Engl= ish "at least one ..." is; it just doesn't specify any number= other than at least one.

Similarly, in English "men carried the piano" implies there were = su'o re men carrying the piano, but it is not specifically not-specifyi= ng the number, just leaving out the information.

--
Kevin Reid =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0<http://swit= chb.org/kpreid/>







To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.


--00504502c60dbcc1a604732b629d-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.