From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 09 15:37:21 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlVmy-0003Zm-KS for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:37:20 -0700 Received: from mail-yw0-f192.google.com ([209.85.211.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MlVmv-0003Zd-CS for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:37:20 -0700 Received: by ywh30 with SMTP id 30so239724ywh.25 for ; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:37:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=r7ei46H4DWY56KlmFT2Hzxgd5tF40Bpf45ko3MaHgqo=; b=FE/vlHSiiFR80WQAOaZZhX9p4RG/HW0m6o+Izw8GYVn+WImZ7c2g9ThCvIv6Ou9DY6 vJwhh0BWOarb1lfL2fcCEWAlXgJ+dA5DJSZSa9kBRnfO32TAgshqAoxjcCuU6PD3izpJ EJ+g0ihSJLQQoCBOLqQppU7QHJGgehGJ+vsBA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZXV/KwHh2DTTAM7/kxOOtyEjJjepl7hzI5xXD4XrSRJat8j/JcEaACEIsTXrpFwDnz FpZ6Ruy7/8SATieJPqFAOEPXQYCklbaXDuzhWGrLY0tQ+Be9vcBAIF8PBkOoop3g9+Q4 IdyCkDFUl/2ipsfAbfCvkfn13G9rzEXvHBpt8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.142.11 with SMTP id u11mr431865agn.91.1252535831115; Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:37:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9ada8ecd0909091328g2d96f57akb78541aa80ef4e4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ada8ecd0909051425t78a046f3kddef2869e5c8e7a2@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909080221h297baa5eqb5eba2ad6ac1d5d5@mail.gmail.com> <200909080827.14128.phma@phma.optus.nu> <9ada8ecd0909081238j2649ee89g28c6b34c72d82b18@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909081321x34f3faa1u40106c6ed49b5972@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909081431m6758386dgf241e2b27e99b5d7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909081613o6eec4c9i71c10f8f418e5c17@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909091032h9c4c838x4addad9337e10f18@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560909091203x10546568pdea651459f482baa@mail.gmail.com> <9ada8ecd0909091328g2d96f57akb78541aa80ef4e4c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 19:37:11 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17560909091537n5ce8af91jf4a86be97e859fd3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: xorlo From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 16137 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Squark Rabinovich wrote: > > No. "Tables fall from the sky" also has no meaning outside context since > it's unclear whether that's a general property of tables or a statement > about certain tables in a specific situation. I think we are simply disagreeing on what "means" means. In some absolute sense, no sentence has any meaning outside context. >> I prefer (2) because it's the one that makes outer quantifiers >> systematic: an outer quantifier always tells you how many out of all >> the referents of the sumti satisfy the predicate. For any sumti >> whatsoever. That breaks down for masses if you use view (1). > > I don't get it. I thought the outer quantifier of loi is the number of > masses. How can this break down? View (1) was: (1) ["loi"] merely indicates that the predicate for which the sumti is an argument applies collectively to the referents of the sumti, If the referents of "loi jubme" are tables rather than a mass, then to follow the normal rule the outer quantifier on that sumti should quantify over tables, not over masses. If the referents of "loi jubme" are masses, an outer quantifier that quantifies over masses does follow the normal pattern. > Suppose I say loi nanmu cu bevri le pipno .i gi'e dasni lo xunre creka Does > it mean the division into groups is the same regarding carrying pianos and > regarding wearing red shirts? (There's no ".i" there. "gi'e" connects bridi tails.) I would answer yes. It's the same as "ko'a goi loi nanmu zo'u ge ko'a bevri le pipno gi ko'a dasni lo xunre creka". > But since we don't know anything about the size of the groups, there is no > difference between lo nanmu cu bevri le pipno and loi nanmu cu bevri le > pipno ! My personal recommendation is to never use "lo'e", "le'e", "lo'i", "le'i", and "la'i", and to avoid using "loi", "lei" and "lai", so if you see no use for "loi" you are in agreement with me. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.