From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Sep 15 13:00:27 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MneCQ-0004as-N6 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:00:27 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.244]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MneCK-0004YT-4K for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:00:26 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d40so10278376and.1 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:00:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=6DdL1m9nZl3lrcuQbCGwUMKkgC/7FmoC2/6sQTvE9Yg=; b=c97OtHESG+lIBYgivHlmWFLrhRUZiepCo/PGnLoC7BOdp6+MQ8d/YPIW+KB4Li+f+V S9XvojIBNSLbYbSHDK0Wo8EShDiIk9VVx2TRL82RDcLp6tygW4gfpikd2zVNAu9gWQ80 Fcoz9dnAwhhxORYeQaOAT6ML5YGroBF7feptk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=wQqJyKJBZxmWQI7bAcNppL8p67ItvUKjcfl0jy4o7QSdN2/+3OYP2Obxul+kCnwbTn 4GFrmgp+Cyw3EQSbAkhT3o7afm1SilLs5CEEha87EJIVc/+zXFg20/rkoVMl+JY3I13B JM0Sdm+E6LhEvm6RMroY9qR1gDlHGti9UY43M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.101.62.12 with SMTP id p12mr7997810ank.71.1253044818721; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:00:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:00:18 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual From: Adam Raizen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636eee2664ebeaf0473a33bf9 X-archive-position: 16192 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam.raizen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --001636eee2664ebeaf0473a33bf9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 22:33, wrote: > Not me, no, but I don't know anyone who was raised first in one language > environment and then, after learning their first language, moved to another > language environment. > I know quite a lot of people like that, and the vast majority of them learn the language of the second environment (the main exception seems to be if they aren't actually in another language environment, because in their entire social and professional life they deal with other expatriots). The problem for our discussion is that adults learning a foreign language nowadays almost always study vocabulary and grammar, so it's tough to tell how easily or thorough it would be without that, and there is also the psychological factor, since adults who move to a different language environment generally retain their cultural identity as part of their natal culture and linguistic group. If immersion weren't enough to attain fluency, how could there have been interpreters in ancient times, before there were grammar books and dictionaries? (Some of them may have been raised bilingual, but probably not all of them.) -- Adam Raizen Timendi causa est nescire. --001636eee2664ebeaf0473a33bf9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 22:33, = <Morp= hemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:
Not me, no= , but I don't know anyone who was raised first in one language environm= ent and then, after learning their first language, moved to another languag= e environment.
=C2=A0
I know quite a lot of peo= ple like that, and the vast majority of them learn the language of the seco= nd environment (the main exception seems to be if they aren't actually = in another language environment, because in their entire social and profess= ional life they deal with other expatriots). The problem for our discussion= is that adults learning a foreign language nowadays almost always study vo= cabulary and grammar, so it's tough to tell how easily or thorough it w= ould be without that, and there is also the psychological factor, since adu= lts who move to a different language environment generally retain their cul= tural identity as part of their natal culture and linguistic group. If imme= rsion weren't enough to attain fluency, how could there have been inter= preters in ancient times, before there were grammar books and dictionaries?= (Some of them may have been raised bilingual, but probably not all of them= .)

--
Adam Raizen <adam.ra= izen@gmail.com>
Timendi causa est nescire.
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