From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Sep 15 17:21:52 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MniHP-0006Hw-6j for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:21:51 -0700 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MniHF-0006GZ-VM for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:21:50 -0700 Received: (qmail 99354 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Sep 2009 00:21:35 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1253060495; bh=dKyiNq56KsYL9i3U0I5WPAlFMTtW5xU7FOTfXgzdTd0=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=c1v0OYNdqG7/MoXzT9IJAb483rcD0vSG6l0a1Fqwb4bh4hvWnRfBcFJfqtoTqAhIBlAYmfNn/BUVX3a8p1oSnbKfHOiFlL8uj9QGZa+Ag8Hbx0Gts3COO9SLUY6ZydCTNcjnJHOqnCK+mGEu/2wm0OSfxkySqgVdY7fsWghwobI= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=FQPDsbrR2pXMtPR9BeEcrKEll+mPrSMEkvVkw7SJM1OV38QVpXAIhNSqnr9QsUZ3t9VeY0iXMWz36gJBPqrrbOMXREVWs4amjwp7zv++ZrGu4tJjZEyjnmV7CeRMOo9icbEJHYTMHWjHqhWC0NZK9ETuWNQcRITDwGDed2ee4lg=; Message-ID: <504124.7609.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: OD1YLFUVM1nop6mN6YFcJzmo__ugtdwHJL461LxDl38x3tGcIutxjRLphBCasVcAz6orcTxmAmu0J2QiT.CTrVt0SLquu1nnoAe06bvDMnHnb7bRJeafi6MwLiTElnlXSYd0EDlqUmLTqwVw0Ueb8a0AHb51yGJNhohK6UAN0pnS1jz5D31XH.dRbb.Mj8sLzYywDe6nRoVzMpTgiJyifJaOY9M9IirprRqQWLyn.pY2VL6zCP6JB3nWmv9VdUQDwmUNKKRqOL_w2txPpnYEZIaApXtESyElhhr1ZYrL5HDrJiLATlG8ILQ8GDJY74ANrHgYm0fTQ4F6kAJyMH2IwJy_GwH99XckKnH_9g0tJrLpOaa.h97RkVOJIg47cs3kJEeUgQ-- Received: from [71.81.138.77] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:21:35 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/1358.27 YahooMailWebService/0.7.338.2 References: Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:21:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1494268498-1253060495=:7609" X-archive-position: 16193 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-1494268498-1253060495=:7609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii W#as there a time before grammar books and dictionaries? The oldest I have heard of is from like -3500 or so. and those are just the ones that survived. I expect that there was a period when folks made do with either pidgins or linguae francae or natural bilinguals (e.g. captured young slaves), but it is hard to date when the more modern approach originated. Oh, Hell, of course the use of the other techniques continue down to the present day in less formal circumstances. ________________________________ From: Adam Raizen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:00:18 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 22:33, wrote: Not me, no, but I don't know anyone who was raised first in one language environment and then, after learning their first language, moved to another language environment. > > I know quite a lot of people like that, and the vast majority of them learn the language of the second environment (the main exception seems to be if they aren't actually in another language environment, because in their entire social and professional life they deal with other expatriots). The problem for our discussion is that adults learning a foreign language nowadays almost always study vocabulary and grammar, so it's tough to tell how easily or thorough it would be without that, and there is also the psychological factor, since adults who move to a different language environment generally retain their cultural identity as part of their natal culture and linguistic group. If immersion weren't enough to attain fluency, how could there have been interpreters in ancient times, before there were grammar books and dictionaries? (Some of them may have been raised bilingual, but probably not all of them.) -- Adam Raizen Timendi causa est nescire. --0-1494268498-1253060495=:7609 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
W#as there a time before grammar books and dictionaries?  The oldest I have heard of is from like -3500 or so.  and those are just the ones that survived.  I expect that there was a period when folks made do with either pidgins or linguae francae or natural bilinguals (e.g. captured young slaves), but it is hard to date when the more modern approach originated.  Oh, Hell, of course the use of the other techniques continue down to the present day in less formal circumstances.

From: Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 3:00:18 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: Fwd: lojban and raising a child bi-lingual

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 22:33, <MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com> wrote:
Not me, no, but I don't know anyone who was raised first in one language environment and then, after learning their first language, moved to another language environment.
 
I know quite a lot of people like that, and the vast majority of them learn the language of the second environment (the main exception seems to be if they aren't actually in another language environment, because in their entire social and professional life they deal with other expatriots). The problem for our discussion is that adults learning a foreign language nowadays almost always study vocabulary and grammar, so it's tough to tell how easily or thorough it would be without that, and there is also the psychological factor, since adults who move to a different language environment generally retain their cultural identity as part of their natal culture and linguistic group. If immersion weren't enough to attain fluency, how could there have been interpreters in ancient times, before there were grammar books and dictionaries? (Some of them may have been raised bilingual, but probably not all of them.)

--
Adam Raizen <adam.raizen@gmail.com>
Timendi causa est nescire.

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