From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Sep 29 11:52:14 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Msho5-0005WV-DG for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:52:13 -0700 Received: from web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.120]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mshny-0005Ve-8C for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:52:13 -0700 Received: (qmail 98367 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Sep 2009 18:51:59 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=R3RhIoB6VdTu4xB7RJEAnD8IezSYY3n0DRZEUqOM0DjCXcmunlD2QgxwrWncru2v/NQA6m7tVyRl8xYBnTPgV1RdIYIxu7zGxhC3LgLJPvxBPZj/UzHP0gIE1fN9TXJJYZ+3TXymPdUreb/lw9iiETNELkH0uWoQBPwFgaDI3ro=; Message-ID: <489104.97598.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: BuPENKIVM1magoE3pWYdVYlJ_ypsYX5Hl3_mp7fpM3FBZsjy8KQ_sGS8.CWc_8YTpoxtNX8x1y0o84PJls2w7ELMbQ0pkk0xBatmrp9cteJ9pyApHieXGfGmhGO9QR_IcFsdKNcmAOlc48Tg7raHNKZ563mZGmEUtrDjyoeyg..JEAzbmd668fQclZYfy.ssme0qioQwGKQ6oy71HbN9GI0ynvgapHMW2vlvlXIZ2mqbtix6pCLPq1pqkglF2t7OkMlDnkh02JZZ4tI3we6IQopujoe3H4UJiHu_9eQ7SXRg.33SjqMw62CSSumsRs9s5Mao.wBpaJ_V81Mk25Iw1Z0aqttcU93cvgs_WRQj.xVC_tJTmH0guVrCkuYIrUGbpaPTe_w- Received: from [83.71.110.240] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:51:59 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/157.18 YahooMailWebService/0.7.347.3 References: <391271.68882.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560909290605l612f7541jc663928a6017ecf5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: Translating "even" To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560909290605l612f7541jc663928a6017ecf5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 16267 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Go to the parenthetical reading of 'surprising' if you don't like that word. John doesn't usually like that sort of cake, say.I do think that the notion of extreme is probably involvedi.e., John is very fussy about cakes, so what is surprising here is how good the cake was that it could overcome even that fastidiousness.  The 'she is not even awake' case is is trickier: what is surprising/unusual? Certainly not that she is asleep nor that she has no opinion on the matter (given that she is asleep).  It apppears to be that she would be thought to have an opinion when she is asleep, but that is all very circuitous.  That is, here we have the inner extreme, the minimum for concern and and she does not meet that. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llambías To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:05:40 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: Translating "even" On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:41 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it.  Everyone else > liked it.  It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually like > things of this sort). "Surprise" is often invoked when dealing with "even", but it is easily defeasible. "The cake was so good that it was no surprise to anyone that even John liked it." We can't really reexpress that by saying that it is surprising that John liked it. Extreme cases are often the most surprising, so "even" can indirectly indicate a surprising case in that sense, but I don't think surprise is part of the intrinsic meaning of "even". In the case of "She is not concerned. In fact, she is not even awake." there need not be any surprise involved either. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.