From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Oct 06 06:51:05 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MvARU-00015j-1d for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:51:04 -0700 Received: from mail-yw0-f189.google.com ([209.85.211.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MvARP-00014W-Tz for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:51:03 -0700 Received: by ywh27 with SMTP id 27so8788031ywh.2 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:50:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gFS/xuWDGpw5pXM9J5wUIqy2ymvgNxi/9rv9IvLLjAo=; b=YNGQqF3NNLLk4/Y0RiQVpAThwZKy4/Ko3i9GsqSiYYaSWK5yg08E42RbahiHBv4Qd1 hdVltGS9nVpwMI6S+BQ8SW/WVLtOTVaJxVSF3Kyu8n6aJ1nFuOHIBdMUOyI5dABhkrpc i4tAYQOk9Xw7BbxaT+WtQPo3VMxB0Vhst0Ggw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OuJwOZJfIghPu9oWxI0JJSFC9m7zXtN2BbuFgO8FPrMoxl2WRiEFTZW65jJtoWz/pI wFo0qxbY/PJWF6lC6jiJmuBKVVaJFur/H5Onmi8SYDx0EWEjkQ7Nx26iSfArVhl3+emP muvvGO7w0/PrzjI/O9cMC6r81CRhYg5lwNwow= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.22.2 with SMTP id 2mr713648agv.104.1254837050950; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 06:50:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300910060604i7f6d4439n1b0754efaecd1107@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300910060604i7f6d4439n1b0754efaecd1107@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:50:50 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17560910060650y2ec4c33btc7a7eb16f9d9f396@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: selbri fa place and gadri question From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 16306 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I have two questions.  The first is: why MUST the x1 place (un-marked with > se/fa) always be to the left of the selbri?  What was the design decision > that leads {nelci mi do} to mean "someone (unspecified) likes me having > something to do with you" instead of the seemingly obvious "like, I do you" > -> "I like you". I wasn't there, but the received lore is that this was because when you transform a selbri into a sumti, you want the slot following the selbri to be the x2 slot: "lo nelci be do", "likers of you", because the x1 slot is the one picked by "lo". OTOH, when transforming a selbri into a tag, it is the x1 slot that follows the selbri "fi'o nelci do", "with you as liker", so that explanation is not completely satisfying. > My second question came about when I was trying to think of how one might > word my first question in lojban.  I quickly realized that I needed a gadri > that gets at the defining form of a word.  So I wanted to say {ma lo krinu > lo nu __ selbri cu se smuni ...} (ma krinu lo nu ...) > where the "__" is some gadri which means > "that x which defines what is a(n) x".  So maybe another way to think about > it would be, how would you say "lions are animals". .i lo cinfo cu danlu .i ma krinu lo nu lo na'e se tcita sumti be fi li pa cu .ei lidne lo se sumti > Am I saying "the > typical"?  Not really, because all lions by definition are animals.  It's > not quite {ro da} either because I'm not talking about "all lions" but about > "that quintessential lion (theoretical) which defines how lion-y a real > world thing is". "Lions" is the basic meaning of "lo cinfo". It can also be used to refer to a particular lion or particular lions if they are especially salient in some context (i.e. restricted to something like "lions in this context") but without any context "lo cinfo" would just be lions in general. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.