From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Oct 06 07:34:53 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 06 Oct 2009 07:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MvB7q-0001jc-PR for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 07:34:51 -0700 Received: from mail-yx0-f202.google.com ([209.85.210.202]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MvB7l-0001hX-DT for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 07:34:50 -0700 Received: by yxe40 with SMTP id 40so4182436yxe.28 for ; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 07:34:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zM5184maeGekaffnrREuHImvOvwx3MZ+cH6iEkj9TeU=; b=DlGohvON17LnqLOJ9CAGz+2U8FO3F5b7q6+IuGmWdEQdr0mve1RlRNWLrLbpSolPIC t7DLrVR5ciXarpCZyQNQJNwQY/rJ5dkuI8bsF8u8hPixOR2lDA3+QGfKXTvAq8ObOzP5 hpYGKrrohME8Ob0oeOV6kNMVuT3OH1U7NgXMU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=go8iPxspBAfhP7ht40RLR6OpAYXr/uFTVMinYiaP8dNYGxXEqVLcjxEAplQAdIpq1t jl3qjmbzll+sdYHE9jhisnIv2hKRUC4N5VdJ/zGFCyU+Y28EbkMOjtTW78yeRDrl3J/6 wfGDQg3axXvkL/8jyj/eXO9ubQXbhmCc42LkI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.112.1 with SMTP id k1mr2460677ybc.231.1254839678808; Tue, 06 Oct 2009 07:34:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17560910060650y2ec4c33btc7a7eb16f9d9f396@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300910060604i7f6d4439n1b0754efaecd1107@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560910060650y2ec4c33btc7a7eb16f9d9f396@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:34:38 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300910060734h224431e1w8b2cba5f622d8fd9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: selbri fa place and gadri question From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd6d5804e343a047545214d X-archive-position: 16307 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --000e0cd6d5804e343a047545214d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable re your second answer: yeah, I through that bridi together last second, thanks for the corrections. I knew {lo} was flexible but I didn't know it was *that* flexible. 2009/10/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > I have two questions. The first is: why MUST the x1 place (un-marked > with > > se/fa) always be to the left of the selbri? What was the design decisi= on > > that leads {nelci mi do} to mean "someone (unspecified) likes me having > > something to do with you" instead of the seemingly obvious "like, I do > you" > > -> "I like you". > > I wasn't there, but the received lore is that this was because when > you transform a selbri into a sumti, you want the slot following the > selbri to be the x2 slot: "lo nelci be do", "likers of you", because > the x1 slot is the one picked by "lo". > > OTOH, when transforming a selbri into a tag, it is the x1 slot that > follows the selbri "fi'o nelci do", "with you as liker", so that > explanation is not completely satisfying. > > > My second question came about when I was trying to think of how one mig= ht > > word my first question in lojban. I quickly realized that I needed a > gadri > > that gets at the defining form of a word. So I wanted to say {ma lo > krinu > > lo nu __ selbri cu se smuni ...} > > (ma krinu lo nu ...) > > > where the "__" is some gadri which means > > "that x which defines what is a(n) x". So maybe another way to think > about > > it would be, how would you say "lions are animals". > > .i lo cinfo cu danlu > > .i ma krinu lo nu lo na'e se tcita sumti be fi li pa cu .ei lidne lo se > sumti > > > Am I saying "the > > typical"? Not really, because all lions by definition are animals. It= 's > > not quite {ro da} either because I'm not talking about "all lions" but > about > > "that quintessential lion (theoretical) which defines how lion-y a real > > world thing is". > > "Lions" is the basic meaning of "lo cinfo". It can also be used to > refer to a particular lion or particular lions if they are especially > salient in some context (i.e. restricted to something like "lions in > this context") but without any context "lo cinfo" would just be lions > in general. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.or= g > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --000e0cd6d5804e343a047545214d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable re your second answer:=A0 yeah, I through that bridi together last second, = thanks for the corrections.=A0 I knew {lo} was flexible but I didn't kn= ow it was that flexible.

2009/10/6= Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have two questions.=A0 The first is: why MUST the x1 place (un-marke= d with
> se/fa) always be to the left of the selbri?=A0 What was the design dec= ision
> that leads {nelci mi do} to mean "someone (unspecified) likes me = having
> something to do with you" instead of the seemingly obvious "= like, I do you"
> -> "I like you".

I wasn't there, but the received lore is that this was because wh= en
you transform a selbri into a sumti, you want the slot following the
selbri to be the x2 slot: "lo nelci be do", "likers of you&q= uot;, because
the x1 slot is the one picked by "lo".

OTOH, when transforming a selbri into a tag, it is the x1 slot that
follows the selbri "fi'o nelci do", "with you as liker&q= uot;, so that
explanation is not completely satisfying.

> My second question came about when I was trying to think of how one mi= ght
> word my first question in lojban.=A0 I quickly realized that I needed = a gadri
> that gets at the defining form of a word.=A0 So I wanted to say {ma lo= krinu
> lo nu __ selbri cu se smuni ...}

(ma krinu lo nu ...)

> where the "__" is some gadri which means
> "that x which defines what is a(n) x".=A0 So maybe another w= ay to think about
> it would be, how would you say "lions are animals".

.i lo cinfo cu danlu

.i ma krinu lo nu lo na'e se tcita sumti be fi li pa cu .ei lidne lo se= sumti

> Am I saying "the
> typical"?=A0 Not really, because all lions by definition are anim= als.=A0 It's
> not quite {ro da} either because I'm not talking about "all l= ions" but about
> "that quintessential lion (theoretical) which defines how lion-y = a real
> world thing is".

"Lions" is the basic meaning of "lo cinfo". It ca= n also be used to
refer to a particular lion or particular lions if they are especially
salient in some context (i.e. restricted to something like "lions in this context") but without any context "lo cinfo" would just= be lions
in general.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.


--000e0cd6d5804e343a047545214d-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.