From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 22 15:22:16 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N162y-0005nO-1Y for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:22:16 -0700 Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.117]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N162t-0005n6-HJ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:22:15 -0700 Received: (qmail 73152 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Oct 2009 22:22:05 -0000 DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=yl2mKe6m6ZyEG/RjZKkqc34/3Y9IVNky5y2aa+AOxf/vS9rNgqk7N2L5zRad7TOJ3WRyLkNnjMahRp5S3JSiVl9/QyDIqhw7bDEMIwvm1R4ZOmm7QNuZ1xM1PoT1jNkz0bHgppd3SJHVntssjhULTjOZ74csyvOQVe34bWn4bcs=; Message-ID: <957905.72377.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: bJ_WLSkVM1kh4UhvQTztCTSlEkjGqN0C6Ebt7XJoraE5IQkNI7gH3Dk5BOU9ulvucJNSCPj2AvYl7Qw7sS8zoNFdL3Z1FGlq9FcpeOw0WbA8Gh6VjTU0Q.uQf1eTCHhb7IVgXno.4mrd1Z7CXrzTQh7h1F3oVbzlbFQo104WZ._uSMK2NfFaNUNI6sGQcqfB27GVH0OWIFS0maNgau9Z3Ie0Vaum5Ey1QcKB47BHZRcBV5IRkMSrglU3lklL9QjwOHkQ18DqKJiYO5cTiQYzPm21w7SJbLakH7Fz_KgDYdlEinUh.IExxahf4vUfSlhZI.M- Received: from [71.81.138.77] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:22:04 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/182.10 YahooMailWebService/0.7.347.3 References: <5715b9300910221359y76c159d9t4a41eb06d93f594c@mail.gmail.com> <20091022210927.GA15870@sdf.lonestar.org> <5715b9300910221416r4b113b2fk2903030efa1681b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 15:22:04 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: danfu dandu danlu To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <5715b9300910221416r4b113b2fk2903030efa1681b5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1433695648-1256250124=:72377" X-archive-position: 16384 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --0-1433695648-1256250124=:72377 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The cmavo space is essentially full, so has the minimum distinction and thus the maximal possibilities for confusion. It is helped only by a slight attempt to put very similar words in radically different categories, so unlikely to occur in the same environment. The attempts at spreading built into the algorithm were not well thought through (though better than JCB's none). On the other hand, getting 1400 gismu-shaped strings that are maximally distinct is something akin to the three-body problem, where every new datum forces reconfiguration of all those already aboard. So, talk louder, repeat yourself, say it in different words, etc. Noisy channels are the problem for every medium and every language. ________________________________ From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-list@lojban.org Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 4:16:00 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: danfu dandu danlu I see. I haven't read chapter 4 in quite some time. Maybe I should go back over it again. I guess it can't be helped that some words will sound similar (I'm not even going to bring up similarity of cmavo). Another interesting one I've been tripped up on: cikre, ckire. They don't so much sound the same as much as they look the same. On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Minimiscience wrote: de'i li 22 pi'e 10 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Luke Bergen .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > >> While studying vocab I noticed the existence of {danfu}, {dandu}, and >>> {danlu}. When the LLG was putting lojban together was there no intention of >>> making the different words sound distinctive? >.skamyxatra > >>There was an intention, and Lojban was in fact designed so that the {gismu} >>sound distinctive, just not (apparently) by your personal standards of >>"distinctive." (Also, you missed "{dansu}.") See item 4 of the {gismu} >>creation algorithm in section 4.14 of the CLL for more information. > >>mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. > >>-- >>jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu senpi > > >>To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org >>with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if >>you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > --0-1433695648-1256250124=:72377 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
The cmavo space is essentially full, so has the minimum distinction and thus the maximal possibilities for confusion.  It is helped only by a slight attempt to put very similar words in radically different categories, so unlikely to occur in the same environment.  The attempts at spreading built into the algorithm were not well thought through (though better than JCB's none).  On the other hand, getting 1400 gismu-shaped strings that are maximally distinct is something akin to the three-body problem, where every new datum forces reconfiguration of all those already aboard.   So, talk louder, repeat yourself, say it in different words, etc.   Noisy channels are the problem for every medium and every language.

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 4:16:00 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: danfu dandu danlu

I see.  I haven't read chapter 4 in quite some time.  Maybe I should go back over it again.  I guess it can't be helped that some words will sound similar (I'm not even going to bring up similarity of cmavo).

Another interesting one I've been tripped up on: cikre, ckire.  They don't so much sound the same as much as they look the same.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com> wrote:
de'i li 22 pi'e 10 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Luke Bergen .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> While studying vocab I noticed the existence of {danfu}, {dandu}, and
> {danlu}.  When the LLG was putting lojban together was there no intention of
> making the different words sound distinctive?
.skamyxatra

There was an intention, and Lojban was in fact designed so that the {gismu}
sound distinctive, just not (apparently) by your personal standards of
"distinctive."  (Also, you missed "{dansu}.")   See item 4 of the {gismu}
creation algorithm in section 4.14 of the CLL for more information.

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

--
jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu senpi


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
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