From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Oct 26 22:58:05 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N2f4G-00088c-W8 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:58:05 -0700 Received: from mail-yx0-f202.google.com ([209.85.210.202]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N2f4D-00087j-Kh for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:58:04 -0700 Received: by yxe40 with SMTP id 40so3485790yxe.28 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:57:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=ITTKKutqHbdjgD0IJUg1LK2PnYCTO0Wk+RUnmmxgxLo=; b=l/X5lxipssPRVAwXuNLpqKPfJYUMEvkMk2ldwwLocxrlxmLqbIFN3v8ZC3ggfG/t7N wJBs6S9+LDWyBJN9e4gwVJUvBEyomb8WaPbrhHmi1nZ+/sXOwYVWUMn/FnKVr0E6EINE 9EPFFwCBXRjg7qLaOYaWaUOOOiYT0eT/J0F/4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=Zbd2eE19UPJABkgMUd/hvwqRuUT4e8+hrWrd20PnKn5xj8xMuabQCYjNpgY0qt0q+X iKVdshecf4KqJkfh7Ig07VTtiHuc4+0DKMjyI+sDst/THn12x6+BwfQ8eh1naCKMWhFZ clKHpwAHM6yjILYwMleLhGmc3WhmdfYeCoOeg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.62.17 with SMTP id k17mr9275625aga.17.1256623075413; Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:57:53 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] djuno lo jei From: Thomas Jack To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 16395 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: thomasjack@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list coi rodo Example 7.3 in chapter 11 of the CLL is: {mi djuno le jei la frank. cu bebna} "I know the truth-value of Frank being a fool." It is noted that this means that "I know whether or not Frank is a fool." Similarly we have example 7.6: {mi kucli le jei la frank. cu bebna} "I am curious about how true it is that Frank is a fool." These examples seem strange to me. In section 6 of chapter 11, it is said that "the 'jei' abstraction refers to a number between 0 and 1 inclusive (as distinct from 'ni' abstractions, which are often on open-ended scales)." (aside: Could we similarly say: {mi djuno le ni le pixra cu blanu} "I know the amount of blueness in the picture"?) {lo jei la frank. cu bebna} is a truth-value, a number between 0 and 1 inclusive. Let's say Frank is really, truly, absolutely a fool. Wouldn't it be correct, then, that {lo jei la frank. cu bebna cu du li pa}? If so, is it then true that {mi djuno li pa}? Suppose also that Jane is really, trully, absolutely brilliant, so that {lo jei la djein cu mencre cu du li pa}. Then, is it true that {mi djuno lo jei la jein cu mencre}? I might not even know Jane! Whether or not we can actually get the {du li pa}s here, the truth-values of these sentences are certainly the same, so this last absurdity should be true, right? (A similar problem happens for {ni} abstractions used in this way, if they can be used in this way at all.) I think I would want to translate "I know whether Frank is a fool" as {mi djuno lo du'u makau jei la frank cu bebna} (similarly for {ni}). In general, given a sumti in a top-level bridi (certainly not abstracted, and perhaps there are other ways to get out of the "top-level", I dunno), and given that we have an identity statement about that sumti, can we substitute salva veritate in the original bridi? I feel like we should be able to. For example if {da broda} is true, and {da du de} is true, then {de broda} should also be true. ki'e mi'e tomoj To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.