From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 02 11:16:38 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:16:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NFugo-00005Z-0L for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:16:38 -0800 Received: from mail-fx0-f217.google.com ([209.85.220.217]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NFug2-00088k-Dx; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:15:55 -0800 Received: by fxm9 with SMTP id 9so599145fxm.10 for ; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=K0DSNqJfAUWI7ETijp8Yd5zYY8M+vOHcxLw2wIxI0hw=; b=Y5Nmjk5TUIMJ8iiIXVnFdAMbS5aiI3qrvCoKKsafteFsy6SQwBB8LSnuLouPGleJCm NSH9DKtcKpYcw+lPqQgFYVjruEXeJlqjlyHaR32aJO9q0dXM0gTiU4FiQ07TupyiA4dp XKXPHvI0gQdTGJNnuFerHcXxTTa6jnx1k0vTM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; b=f9IOVvJuY5jB8xws33qOtUDSQXtCA7nO/4DEghLDFHU2fKhwuvgqGTK2J0IoXaPi9I hKPMNrPA6vuJIsI3wzlc8nooepAj3h+x5kKJZStS+KZykjgkZhfV8W+0Svn2AY/3lWOf kk8rIg8nATjqSeos00sl3V6lptMzMB7EHLOyA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.102.168.11 with SMTP id q11mr176611mue.135.1259781343104; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:15:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <348584.67527.qm@web88004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <348584.67527.qm@web88004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> From: Daniel Brockman Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 20:15:23 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f076bc46170eae99 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: [jbovlaste] malranxi To: jbovlaste@lojban.org, lojban-list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-archive-position: 16524 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: daniel@brockman.se Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Moving discussion to lojban-list. On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:30 PM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > Comments, please. > > malranxi r1=m2 is sarcastic as used/stated by m3 > > from > > mabla: m1 is a derogative connotation/sense of m2 used by m3 > ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3. > > gloss: > sarcastic > caustic sounding > > This assumes that r1 is an abstraction, not a person. > Try as I may, I can't see any use for r1 or r2. I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean. Being ironic in that sense is not very ironic in the sense relevant to {ranxi}, in my opinion, even though saying the opposite of what you mean is usually a little unexpected. For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}: In English: dutsku: x1=c1 says x2=c2=d1 to x3=c3 through medium x4=c4, but means the opposite, namely x5=d2 (text) In Lojban: lo du'u ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u dutsku cu du'u ko'a cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e ku'i jinvi lo smuni be ko'e na .e ko'u noi dukti ko'e dutsku1: ironic person dutsku2: ironic utterance dutsku3: audience of irony dutsku4: medium of ironic utterance dutsku5: subtext of ironic utterance (I'm not sure what goes in dukti3 here --- maybe {lo ka jetnu} or {lo ka smuni} or something ---, but in any case it doesn't have to be in the place structure of {dutsku} itself.) Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} --- ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event) by doing activity x4 (event) --- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases. But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need. I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. It's a rather ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of "sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile. -- Daniel Brockman daniel@brockman.se To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.