From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 02 15:21:40 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 02 Dec 2009 15:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NFyVt-0002FB-KZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 15:21:39 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f187.google.com ([209.85.211.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NFyVI-0001nc-AP for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 15:21:08 -0800 Received: by ywh17 with SMTP id 17so787054ywh.2 for ; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 15:20:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BVbEI8wqyp+bcMyXFYSxSH3L7DI6LhgG6/VT3V3AlnI=; b=ukKpHHJf6E0w9fjiuNQ5PYVTsTczCiDWCSTpcY8QPRlCXRJoN1EUbwmQkCoo1if5m5 cGZG1o1nD5Ro/bDvIJD9f6crtGM96sH4EgkSGSfuhItKDbkhZ7PY6u3QJXbfA779ykhB gTe8BkZbfPCdXhcqrYlaFL8ses536LJp7hVP4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dZ/4+u+1SAqrthEmoLx3X/JjQdsCTg6hWeU2g5CgWfZIPDLITftntBDuVSzNGmu9Cu Cr9H00dWmcHfNsEnFjDOrZI06KFH4ky6f6GhnfvpLA9PbT99xyiuv99u2cnmKC8UYy7+ eYcHhDEoPZWSYEvzZJup45xnqxJg/bZOb3qT8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.7.36 with SMTP id 36mr1117979agg.32.1259796017122; Wed, 02 Dec 2009 15:20:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <348584.67527.qm@web88004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 20:20:17 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17560912021520q72a3b6c5mba2622589e233049@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: [jbovlaste] malranxi From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 16530 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Daniel Brockman wrote: > >> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3. > > I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck > of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean. So: r1: a diabetic is run over by a truck of insulin r2: insulin is beneficial to diabetics r3: tragic Would that be right? Other kinds of x3 in different situations might be "funny" or "poetic justice". No idea what a state in x3 would mean though. > For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of > what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}: That might work, but I'm not sure saying the opposite of what you mean is enough for being ironic. "dutsku" sounds like being contrarian rather than being ironic. It may be part of it, but it doesn't seem to be the central part. The central part has to be that the act of saying it is ironic in the sense of ranxi. I would keep "ranxi" in the lujvo rather than the weaker "dukti", so I suggest "raxsku" "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual expectation when someone says something) I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case. > Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} --- > >    ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event) > by doing activity x4 (event) > > --- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases. > > But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal > opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu > dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need. Or "raxyckasu", "ckasu fo lo ranxi", x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 by doing something ironic, contrary to expectation. > I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm.  It's a rather > ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of > "sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile. I guess we need the context in which the word is used too. One common use is to say "I was just being sarcastic", as a kind of apology for saying something that wasn't well received. In that situation I might go with "mi pu xalbo", or "mi pu ranxi xalbo". mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.