From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Dec 04 17:07:36 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NGj7Y-0003h9-72 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:07:36 -0800 Received: from mail-yx0-f202.google.com ([209.85.210.202]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NGj7J-0003FT-DJ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:07:26 -0800 Received: by yxe40 with SMTP id 40so2775670yxe.28 for ; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:07:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YAiI7c2y0ToBHXAwkyBqBHIVPgQZDw918d1ETbzdkZc=; b=XP0AAKmtOAGe+dcwnfOdDQ6DAsQGCtcoPMvZuUrh3LW7Vl9Tk2XzZyl8TFY/VDIukl 4GfAByRNqkyinrt1xXYX8QFtuTK4qwTTsHkOgAZ/MPVkE2Fx4AyxFvvt/VR3ZFue42cZ am4XunUwbtgA1ps2ISUuCPY4sxAD9w98LY4Gw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kmhRqD0f+cp7uezVxea5dKJHtK7KyvRvQt4lGIiFZUXV9gZpg9Wu8tb2pBID6WDsIe N6UWtIdXrjWhbicftCwNpQqej8Dvoq4ztxPNp6AZ9O+eu5k2Yqppiijr9ycxjF6qAADV ONxaIN0gxdem3uSO8JYqIj2MMMaAU6CM/YvhA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.157.19 with SMTP id j19mr6016098ago.60.1259975230319; Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:07:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17560912030728s34f5a4f7he1ecb295fb7bfacf@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17560912030728s34f5a4f7he1ecb295fb7bfacf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:07:10 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: what's a du'u? From: Thomas Jack To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 16615 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: thomasjack@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list My real concern is about {du'u}, though. As I understand it, it's a predication (where the arguments are things referred to), so that {lo du'u la .tom. du la .tom. cu du lo du'u la .tom. du la .tomas.} is true given that all the names refer to the same person. Maybe a {du'u} somehow wraps up not only the things referred to, but the way in which they are referred to? I wonder to what extent Lojban settles this question for itself rather than (like English) leaving it open for theorists to come up with all kinds of different theories about reference, propositions, etc. I also wonder whether there is evidence to be found in the logs about whether people typically would assent to {lo du'u la .tom. du la .tom. cu du lo du'u la .tom. du la .tomas.} 2009/12/3 Jorge Llambías : > On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Thomas Jack wrote: >> Suppose {la .tom. du la .tomas.} is true. >> >> What if any is the difference in meaning, then, between {mi djuno lo >> du'u la .tom. du la .tomas.} and {mi djuno lo du'u la .tom. du la >> .tom.}? > > You don't really need to bring in "djuno". "la .tom. du la .tomas." > and "la .tom. du la .tom." already have different meanings, even in > cases where they are both true. An "la .tom. du ri" has a third > meaning, because repetition of a name is not always anaphoric. Whereas > "la .tom. du ri" will always be true, "la .tom. du la .tom." might be > false if there are two different Toms involved. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.