From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Dec 18 06:37:29 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NLdxQ-0006vQ-OY for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:37:29 -0800 Received: from mail-pz0-f193.google.com ([209.85.222.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NLdwR-0006Mv-70 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:36:31 -0800 Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so2097401pzk.28 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:36:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=WE7GLCQxwkNTNVMrjN9GingCJ8rSxboIs85lpWZJNfo=; b=VqxjRqCRuQdTnBuxngJr0YaUDJCpIaWIQVAJD0JtCYXcWsUBR+9YtHn/mTtviGXAng K78Omw5S9HHwLUJWf4sOe1jLTq+RG7sHpjVLQ11bzMGpzTH1afi7rOlyYce7/SOkyjcr Wk4pW5webjM+ie3q8WdjRcjYeQpTxX7rz9N1k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=aVpr6TNWQP/ZF9L0Cblb8Ac6etagBoOb6xHfUihReOugzSxWeNG0afJxGbm/jeSdsN preJHSQV9tf4gfwWaJ/sxcBzlEQ4PISZHVJCqu05HZFaCz4bDoOxjfN5dIc1MkSftxo0 NY0KfQMszX4N+//3nICIJlmfqUcxteklb+53M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.122.6 with SMTP id u6mr2649412wfc.95.1261146981082; Fri, 18 Dec 2009 06:36:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300912180600h37d7d855v60f915f1cd2dae2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300912171323y6c5a659dy22db9f86144402be@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300912180600h37d7d855v60f915f1cd2dae2c@mail.gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 22:36:01 +0800 Message-ID: <27513e550912180636i2a4e0002jbbd587bfd0e628e0@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: tense question To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e0ba03d12819047b01a91a X-archive-position: 16689 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: get.oren@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --001636e0ba03d12819047b01a91a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {mi nelci do ca lo nu do nelci mi}. How can we reverse the parts before and after {ca} here? Then it could align with the Chinese structure: =C4=E3=CF=B2=BB=B6=CE=D2=CA=B1=A3=AC=CE=D2=CF=B2=BB=B6=C4=E3 n=A8=AA x=A8=ABhu=A8=A1n w=A8=AF sh=A8=AA, w=A8=AE x=A8=ABhu=A8=A1n n=A8=AB {do nelci mi mi nelci do } mi'e .ku'us. .i mu'o On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:00, Luke Bergen wrote: > .ua ki'e > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Daniel Brockman wrot= e: > >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> > So I've been trying to learn the tense words and it occurred to me tha= t >> I >> > don't really understand the difference between {ca} and {ca'o}. I kin= d >> of >> > understand the difference between {ba} and {ba'o} I guess, but when {c= a} >> is >> > used like: {mi nelci do ba lo nu do nelci mi} how is it different from >> > {ca'o}? >> >> I guess you mean {mi nelci do ca lo nu do nelci mi}. >> >> Short answer: {ca} =3D "when", {ca'o} =3D "while". The difference is th= at >> {ca} is about points in time, whereas {ca'o} is about periods in time. >> >> While {broda ca ko'a} means that broda and ko'a overlap at some point >> in time, {broda ca'o ko'a} means that broda occurs during ko'a. This >> means that {ca} is symmetrical while {ca'o} is not: {broda ca lo nu >> brode} =3D {brode ca lo nu broda}, pretty much, but {broda ca'o lo nu >> brode} is not the same as {brode ca'o lo nu broda}. >> >> .i mi nelci do ca lo nu do nelci mi >> I like you when you like me. >> I like you at some instant when you like me. >> >> .i mi nelci do ca'o lo nu do nelci mi >> I like you while you like me. >> I like you the whole time you like me. >> >> Since {ca} is more general than {ca'o}, you can safely use {ca} when >> in doubt and you can pretty much never go wrong. When you use {ca'o}, >> you're kind of emphasizing that something occurs during a whole >> period. When you use {ca}, you're not emphasising anything in >> particular, just anchoring the event to a point in time. >> >> -- >> Daniel Brockman >> daniel@brockman.se >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to >> lojban-list-request@lojban.org >> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or i= f >> you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. >> >> > --001636e0ba03d12819047b01a91a Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
{mi nelci do ca lo nu do nelci mi}.

How can we reve= rse the parts before and after {ca} here?
Then it could align with the = Chinese structure:

=C4=E3=CF=B2=BB=B6=CE=D2=CA=B1=A3=AC=CE=D2=CF=B2= =BB=B6=C4=E3
n=A8=AA x=A8=ABhu=A8=A1n w=A8=AF sh=A8=AA, w=A8=AE x=A8=ABh= u=A8=A1n n=A8=AB
{do nelci mi <when-that-occurs,>  mi nelci do }

mi'e = .ku'us. .i mu'o

On Fri, Dec 18, 2= 009 at 22:00, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
.ua ki'e
=


On Fri, Dec= 18, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Daniel Brockman <daniel@brockman.se> = wrote:
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.co= m> wrote:
> So I've been trying to learn the tense words and it occurred to me= that I
> don't really understand the difference between {ca} and {ca'o}= .  I kind of
> understand the difference between {ba} and {ba'o} I guess, but whe= n {ca} is
> used like: {mi nelci do ba lo nu do nelci mi} how is it different from=
> {ca'o}?

I guess you mean {mi nelci do ca lo nu do nelci mi}.

Short answer: {ca} =3D "when", {ca'o} =3D "while". =  The difference is that
{ca} is about points in time, whereas {ca'o} is about periods in time.<= br>
While {broda ca ko'a} means that broda and ko'a overlap at some poi= nt
in time, {broda ca'o ko'a} means that broda occurs during ko'a.=  This
means that {ca} is symmetrical while {ca'o} is not: {broda ca lo nu
brode} =3D {brode ca lo nu broda}, pretty much, but {broda ca'o lo nu brode} is not the same as {brode ca'o lo nu broda}.

.i mi nelci do ca lo nu do nelci mi
I like you when you like me.
I like you at some instant when you like me.

.i mi nelci do ca'o lo nu do nelci mi
I like you while you like me.
I like you the whole time you like me.

Since {ca} is more general than {ca'o}, you can safely use {ca} when in doubt and you can pretty much never go wrong.  When you use {ca'= ;o},
you're kind of emphasizing that something occurs during a whole
period.  When you use {ca}, you're not emphasising anything in
particular, just anchoring the event to a point in time.

--
Daniel Brockman
daniel@brockman.se<= /a>


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.



--001636e0ba03d12819047b01a91a-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.