From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Dec 21 10:11:20 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMmj1-0003wQ-MT for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:11:20 -0800 Received: from mail-fx0-f211.google.com ([209.85.220.211]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMmhs-0003I9-0W for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:10:13 -0800 Received: by fxm3 with SMTP id 3so2567887fxm.4 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:10:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=XLlOq0Jice1XXJUvBllkVOveFV4srpc86szuBWACxec=; b=WADmf1Xbjm1vvarhy2C8yfIRfjiHv+hZPzebUbcN7EScoOE+4PTYE+i1ti5qhcqM/4 /AuV7/Q2SISQB57N5Tnjhf0BxnJkBNmYIWrGRm5bsPny9PXH25aqKMZ1uvOlcxb819lw H0g9xFA2IUqreqkcM5jOK1ZSax1IuJtlbtwTQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=ljt9PMNU1+6VK4MgQGGz6iQr+gvv7QGUOuNWHOTvkelNdJZvERLpJZGG6NpePVs4eb vTJDRUIXMkjAKkqCFwVVJvBxCIcWmvN4jjqEHcUsytQpbRmT17Mar6F+we3K7G9G4RSo nYNc32zwoHlSeeBBa3Z8NEB6b8kDm9I1gJdok= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.102.178.22 with SMTP id a22mr1245790muf.42.1261419000978; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:10:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27513e550912210830u5d6e9c7chc22836f7c7cb64c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <702226df0912210730i37f4f966xc4f39d6e0a7623d8@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550912210808s2a9215a7kebcf109fd35fcb02@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550912210812m11bdb70eh94aedf91ab140639@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550912210823n6ab20e3ag35dad2cd59a11395@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550912210830u5d6e9c7chc22836f7c7cb64c0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:10:00 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 09bfb12f5b79f053 Message-ID: <86eb6b1b0912211010q12305bc0r37782a5ab2c66ee7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: interlingua translation and first-order logic From: Rainer Ottmueller To: lojban-list@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636416a9f775f47047b40ffc4 X-archive-position: 16729 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: efidetum@googlemail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --001636416a9f775f47047b40ffc4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > first-order predicate logic was the foundation of declarative languages In a political sense (please forgive this dirty word)? Anyway, there are other (more modern) forms of logic. > of declarative languages like prolog Which is the utmost a computer is capable of! > everyone is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic programming algorithms Not in particular. > instead of essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning I am not supposed to lend out my abacus, am I? 2009/12/21 Oren > *sorry if I'm double-posting* > > As for where 'getting computers understanding predicate logic' is, I'm > not sure what to say, but I always thought that first-order predicate > logic was the foundation of declarative languages like prolog. > > Anyhow, as I understand the state of Machine Translation, > everyone is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic > programming algorithms to raise BLEU scores-- everyone's invested in > the statistical (i.e. NOT interlingual) approach, and trying to figure > out how to maximize performance. I think that there would be real > advantages to using lojban as an interlingual medium, instead of > essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning, but > when you have huge corpora of bilingual (or better) natural language > data and virtually no bilingual corpora with lojban, it's just > infeasible. There were a few attempts to use Esperanto for that > purpose a while back (even before this paper), and no one seems to > cite them, except as failures. > > Here's a really good up-to-date intro to MT: > http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYZKIeNnTBe2ZGd4azRrZm1fNTI2ZnpnYmRrZ2g > > And a powerpoint version with lots of diagrams: > http://people.csail.mit.edu/people/koehn/publications/tutorial2003.pdf > > Here's the origin of those two documents, if you're interested in more: > http://www.statmt.org/ > --001636416a9f775f47047b40ffc4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=C2=A0first-order predicat= e=C2=A0logic was the foundation of declarative languages
In a political sense=C2=A0<= /font>(please forgive this dirty word)? Anyway, there are other (more moder= n) forms of logic.

>=C2=A0of declarative languages like prolog
Which is the utmost a computer is capable of!

&g= t;=C2=A0everyone is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic=C2=A0pro= gramming algorithms
Not in particular.

>=C2=A0instead of=C2=A0= essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning
I a= m not supposed to lend out my abacus, am I?


2009/12/21 Oren <get.oren@gmail.com>
*sorry if I'm double-posting*

As for where 'getting computer= s understanding predicate logic' is, I'm
not sure what to say, but I always thought that first-order predicate
logic was the foundation of declarative languages like prolog.

Anyhow, as I understand the state of Machine Translation,
everyone is in= vestigating hybrid models of various dynamic
programming algorithms to raise BLEU scores-- everyone's invested in the statistical (i.e. NOT interlingual) approach, and trying to figure
out how to maximize performance. I think that there would be real
advantages to using lojban as an interlingual medium, instead of
essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning, but
when you have huge corpora of bilingual (or better) natural language
data and virtually no bilingual corpora with lojban, it's just
infeasible. There were a few attempts to use Esperanto for that
purpose a while back (even before this paper), and no one seems to
cite them, except as failures.

Here's a really good up-to-date intro to MT:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=3D0AYZKIeNn= TBe2ZGd4azRrZm1fNTI2ZnpnYmRrZ2g

And a powerpoint version with lots of diagrams:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/people/koehn/publicat= ions/tutorial2003.pdf

Here's the origin of those two documents, if you're interested in m= ore:
http://www.statmt.org/=

--001636416a9f775f47047b40ffc4-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.